Best group

[fxvr5]

then your "bench" procedure is flawed. better to shoot standing and take walkalong's suggestion about using the same grip with each shot. it doesn't take much grip variation to show a vertical string in a shot group.

luck,

murf

Bad advice. Test gun/ammo accuracy on sandbags or a pistol rest off a bench if you don't have a Ransom Rest. Shooting handheld, standing or without a rest, introduces way to many potential errors. Yes, one can produce smaller groups that way sometimes, but that just 'chance' realized.

If you're not testing the gun and ammo for accuracy, shoot any way you want.

 

[KYregular]

then your "bench" procedure is flawed. better to shoot standing and take walkalong's suggestion about using the same grip with each shot. it doesn't take much grip variation to show a vertical string in a shot group.

luck,

murf

No, the method is not flawed, the rounds aren't perfect. I routinely split cards at 10 yards free hand. Don't think I'm weak on fundamentals.

 

[KYregular]

Bad advice. Test gun/ammo accuracy on sandbags or a pistol rest off a bench if you don't have a Ransom Rest. Shooting handheld, standing or without a rest, introduces way to many potential errors. Yes, one can produce smaller groups that way sometimes, but that just 'chance' realized.

If you're not testing the gun and ammo for accuracy, shoot any way you want.

Totally agree

 

[Walkalong]

When you are trying to detect small differences, sample sizes have to get pretty big. That's not special to shooting. That's for anything where there is some level of uncertainty.

Yep.

 

[Walkalong]

Actually, you're better off shooting lots of rounds into one group. Multiple, small groups increase the chance of missing how all the shots align with each other. You get around that by shooting all the shots in one group.

This would be a good debate. Shooting aggregates is a good way to test loads, as is shooting big groups.

But that isn't the issue here IMHO. Not to mention he did neither, he shot one group each with a small number of shots in the group.

 

[KYregular]

I shoot small groups at first to look for initial signs of pressure, and to rule out low charges that don't cycle. I have shot that load before, but this time I weighed each case and bullet before loading, to see if there were any distinct differences. 5.7 is the max PP load via Hornady, but with no signs of pressure I may bump it up a tenth or two to check it out. Ideally to get to around 1200 fps and group a little tighter. I have berrys rounds that produce one ragged hole at 7 yards when I test it off the bench so I don't think my shooting method is suspect. Thanks guys

 

[Walkalong]

I don't think my shooting method is suspect.

Then both loads are mediocre at best. Brass still isn't an issue.

 

[KYregular]

Both groups have much room for improvement. My point is, has anyone noticed any one headstamp shoots better than any other in their testing? If this was 25 yards I would be happy, but at 7 it needs work. Trying to narrow it down before working up a new load.

 

[fxvr5]

Then both loads are mediocre at best.

You can't conclude that. Repeat: these are 5-shot groups, and just one of each so close in size that concluding ANYTHING is delusional.

Seriously guys, you have to stop making mountains out of molehills.

My gun happens to like that load, though I used Hornady 125 HAP bullets with that same powder charge. It produced a 10-shot group at 25 yards from a Ransom Rest of 1.05". A 15-shot group with 5.6 grains of PP produced a 1.34" group. Power pistol and Hornady's HAP and XTP bullets tend to go well with one another.

 

[fxvr5]

Both groups have much room for improvement. My point is, has anyone noticed any one headstamp shoots better than any other in their testing? If this was 25 yards I would be happy, but at 7 it needs work. Trying to narrow it down before working up a new load.

Ask yourself what is different between different headstamps.

1. Case volume. This can affect velocity and velocity can affect accuracy. Will it in a specific example? Only testing will tell.

Oh, and I wouldn't bother weighing the cases. The presumption is that weight reflects volume. If you're interested in volume, measure volume - not something else and then presume it's the same thing - it might not be.

2. Case length. This affects headspace and this can affect accuracy. You want: A) uniform case length, and B) the longer the better to reduce headspace.

To recap, case volume and case length are the things that you should measure for testing you semi-auto.

One can get around this (to some degree) by using new brass from the same lot number - it should be relatively uniform in case volume (capacity) and length. But then it has to be tested correctly. Honestly, I wouldn't trust anything other than a Ransom Rest or a barrel fixture to tell me something truly useful about accuracy. If the human factor is involved, results can get f'ed up pretty quick. You want to eliminate any source of error, and humans introduce all sorts of errors in this type of testing, from trigger control to shaky hands to vision issues. And lots of shots are required. And then the test has to be repeated (perhaps several times) to make sure it's real. That's Science 101.

 

[KYregular]

Ask yourself what is different between different headstamps.

1. Case volume. This can affect velocity and velocity can affect accuracy. Will it in a specific example? Only testing will tell.

Oh, and I wouldn't bother weighing the cases. The presumption is that weight reflects volume. If you're interested in volume, measure volume - not something else and then presume it's the same thing - it might not be.

2. Case length. This affects headspace and this can affect accuracy. You want: A) uniform case length, and B) the longer the better to reduce headspace.

To recap, case volume and case length are the things that you should measure for testing you semi-auto.

One can get around this (to some degree) by using new brass from the same lot number - it should be relatively uniform in case volume (capacity) and length. But then it has to be tested correctly. Honestly, I wouldn't trust anything other than a Ransom Rest or a barrel fixture to tell me something truly useful about accuracy. If the human factor is involved, results can get f'ed up pretty quick. You want to eliminate any source of error, and humans introduce all sorts of errors in this type of testing, from trigger control to shaky hands to vision issues. And lots of shots are required. And then the test has to be repeated (perhaps several times) to make sure it's real. That's Science 101.

Thanks for the input. With a perfect round there would be one hole in a group of fifty, but that's not gonna happen. I don't shoot bullseye or anything, but would like to have one really tight round. The info you gave has gave me something to go on. Probably best to try some new Starline brass just for the sake of it. While I am trying to tighten my off hand groups, I have Berrys loads I shoot at 100 that hit steel fine. I'm with ya on the ransom rest, it's on my list of "some day".

 

[fxvr5]

Thanks for the input. With a perfect round there would be one hole in a group of fifty, but that's not gonna happen. I don't shoot bullseye or anything, but would like to have one really tight round. The info you gave has gave me something to go on. Probably best to try some new Starline brass just for the sake of it. While I am trying to tighten my off hand groups, I have Berrys loads I shoot at 100 that hit steel fine. I'm with ya on the ransom rest, it's on my list of "some day".

Not even Bullseye shooters get all the rounds in one hole - though they wish they could. With a 45 Auto, the best bullseye guns with the best ammo put 10 shots in just over an inch at 50 yards from a Ransom Rest. With a 9mm and 38 Super, those ten rounds tend to be under an inch - that's from gunsmiths that build these super-accurate bullseye pistols. Your XTP and Power Pistol load is proven super-accurate in lots of guns, and would be very hard to beat.

Ransom Rest owners are few and far between. I'm lucky to have one and to have a place to use it. It's not realistic for 99.999% of shooters. They're not cheap and you have to have the right place to set them up properly. I've Ransom Rested many thousands of rounds, and have seen very interesting stuff happen during tests. I've seen lots of things including the information I posted links to; there can be a big difference between group sizes when shooting multiple groups with the same ammo from the same gun. 5-shot groups are notoriously poor at predicting anything. They are traditional in gun publication reviews, and I don't expect that to change, but it's too easy to draw a false conclusion based on them. Take a close look at publications and you can find a 3, 4 or 5-fold difference in 5-shot group sizes with the same ammo. That should be a hint as to how potentially useless they can be.

 

[vaalpens]

You have a good load there. My best 9mm grouping loads are 5.3gr Power Pistol and 5.6gr Power Pistol, with 5.6gr slightly edging out 5.3gr when it comes to ES/SD numbers.

My testing is done at 15yards with a scope. The scope has helped me shrink my grouping sizes. I do see stringing once in a while, and still can't explain it. With my last shoot it happened again, with 40s&w pulled bullets. Looking at my records it seems it happens mostly with pulled bullets, so it could be the bullet or neck tension, but I have no idea.

Following is my best 5 shot group with a 9mm load tested at 15yards using PowerPistol:

 

[Walkalong]

You can't conclude that. Repeat: these are 5-shot groups, and just one of each so close in size that concluding ANYTHING is delusional.

Gotta giggle a little here. Can't conclude it is a good load, too few shots, can't conclude it's a bad load, too few shots? It's only going to get bigger. He says his shooting isn't the issue, so, like a ransom rest, so, it's not a good load. You are saying then it is after all his shooting because you know the load is good. I said that all along until he claimed his shooting could not be at fault, so I agreed with him and concluded it's the load.

I have the Caldwell version of the Ransom Rest, but have not built a solid platform for it at the new to us property yet. That said, I can shoot well enough and have enough experience that with testing I can figure out if a load shoots well to very well, or not. Can I shoot as well as a Ransom Rest? Heck no. Can I shoot well enough to prove Load A is a quarter inch better at 50 yards than Load B? Heck no I can't.

As has been posted here a million times, it takes more than one 5 or 10 shot group. I can shoot a bad group with a good load and get lucky once with a poor load. If I consistently shoot good groups (With the odd bad one here and there) with a load, and consistently hit tough targets (With occasional misses) with said load, my obvious mistakes aside, it's a good load.

99.99% don't have a Ransom Rest? Might be correct. Doesn't mean they cannot figure out if a load is a good one or not. You are right though, most folks don't shot enough rounds to make a better informed decision though.

 

[KYregular]

I can't tell you how many loads that I have dialed in STARTING with five shot loads. If any of those loads shoot fairly good groups I load 25 and try again, but if the load does not cycle OR barely hits paper I see no sense in have loaded 25 of those in the first place. I the later was the case and I loaded 25 to start with I would probably stop a 5 and throw the other rounds in the pull can.

 

[KYregular]

Here is an example of a group that I loaded that started out as a 5 shot group test. I eventually loaded more to test it further of course. That was a rifle load for 75 grain Hornady BTHP that shot inside a 2" circle at 300 yards, 8mph crosswind. 1 MOA at that range is 3", so it is possible. I would not have been an better to have loaded 25 initial loads that didn't pass and shot horrible groups. It is possible..
Fifth shot was at a clay pigeon just for fun.

 

[Glockula]

Those are good looking groups. I never have "grouped" pistol loads unless I have a corresponding rifle. All of my pistol work ups are based on pressure signs and function if used in a semi auto. Accuracy will be rung out when I am testing and shooting. I already bought the projectiles, I am going to shoot them anyway. Now, once you find one you like and is accurate record good data and have fun!

I am not saying pistol accuracy is not important, really quite the opposite. I am saying the COAL, projectile and powder charge have to function the pistol first and your accuracy load will naturally be in those parameters. Some projectiles will just not be accurate in a certain pistol. It most likely will come down to how the barrel slugs out and projectile fit more than anything else. JMHO.

 

[KYregular]

Off topic here , but Walkalong is that a marker in you press on your pic?

 

[Walkalong]

In my Avatar?

Station 1: Nothing (Cases already sized/hand primed)
Station 2: Expander die
Station 3: Powder drop tube (Black) leading up to the 10X measure
Station 4: Redding Competition seater
Station 5: Taper crimp die

Oh, I see now, the Fenix flashlight. I drilled a two step hole between station 3 & 4 and have a small AA Fenix flashlight that shines down into the case to help see the powder charge.
I have an E2 in there now.

 

[LiveLife]

one ragged hole at 7 yards when I test it off the bench so I don't think my shooting method is suspect

As has been posted here a million times, it takes more than one 5 or 10 shot group. I can shoot a bad group with a good load and get lucky once with a poor load. If I consistently shoot good groups (With the odd bad one here and there) with a load, and consistently hit tough targets (With occasional misses) with said load, my obvious mistakes aside, it's a good load.

We all have good days and bad days at the range and for me to call a load accurate, it must consistently shoot accurate on repeated range trips at all distances of 7, 15 and 25 yards.

For my load development and accuracy range testing, I start at 7 yards from start charge until I have reliable slide cycling and spent case extraction and ejection. Then I will take identified more accurate loads and shoot at 15 yards to determine the most accurate charge then incrementally reduce the OAL to see if shot groups reduce. Then I will take the most accurate load and shoot at 25 yards (With scoped carbine testing, I start at 25 yards then 50 and 100 yards).

For decades, I have used 1" at 7 yards, 2" at 15 yards and 3" at 25 yards as my accuracy reference as I found decent factory and consistent reloads to produce these group sizes from typical service pistols. Only very accurate loads have produced 2" or less groups at 25 yards so small groups around one inch at 7 yards won't provide much information as shot groups at 10, 15 and 25 yards (But at longer range, shooter input becomes more of a factor. My bullseye match shooting mentor even tested loads at 25 and 50 yards with his match pistols and produced smaller groups than my groups at 15/25 yards. )

Many claim accuracy testing should be done beyond 10/15 yards and I usually start my testing at minimum of 10 yards:

9mm Herco jacketed/plated/lead testing at 10 yards - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-and-herco-for-jacketed-lead-plated-bullets.745656/

9mm 147 gr "light" load comparison at 10 yards - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...bullet-powder-comparison.748940/#post-9424833

But shooting at 25 yards really will separate accurate loads from less accurate loads as sum of reloading variables and shooter input can extrapolate to larger groups on paper. So only the most accurate loads will produce smaller shot groups repeatedly at 25 yards and you may not see this at 7 yards.


Plated bullets with rounded base leak more gas and are generally less accurate than jacketed bullets. Yet, Berry's regular plated 124 gr RN (solid base) loaded long (I was trying to minimize gas leakage) produced these groups at 25 yards - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...e-pistol-reloaders.746062/page-2#post-9382933

And RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN (which has thicker plating similar to Speer TMJ) produced these groups at 25 yards. With so many reloading variables (these were done with mixed range brass) and shooter input, being able to produce smaller than 2" groups at 25 yards means these loads had to be more accurate than others - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-5#post-9655361

 

[Hondo 60]

I'd be pretty dang happy with those groupings.

 

[LiveLife]

I'd be pretty dang happy with those groupings.

We have good range days and bad range days.

After these shot groups were posted using factory Glock 22 barrel (9mm groups were shot with KKM/Lone Wolf barrels), there were many in disbelief (Guy shooting in the next lane said if he didn't see them with his own eyes, he wouldn't believe them either) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9645513

So I had Dudedog meet me at the range for in-person verification and got this group. Hands were rested on top of a small ice chest and fired fairly quick shots. I had slight stage fright with Dudedog watching but relaxed and shot as usual. Some days, we have good range days. - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9646469

 

[KYregular]

In my Avatar?

Station 1: Nothing (Cases already sized/hand primed)
Station 2: Expander die
Station 3: Powder drop tube (Black) leading up to the 10X measure
Station 4: Redding Competition seater
Station 5: Taper crimp die

Oh, I see now, the Fenix flashlight. I drilled a two step hole between station 3 & 4 and have a small AA Fenix flashlight that shines down into the case to help see the powder charge.
I have an E2 in there now.

View attachment 806570

Nice piece of machine work. I could not stand it if i couldnt check each case, im too scared of under or double charging. I run a turret and like you I size and flare them hand prime. I however run a powder charge and weigh every load, which while it's dispensing I'm doing one final inspection of the round to charge. Once I have a tray of 50 I look them over again and set bullets in each, then seat and taper crimp. Not the fastest way but gives my OCD peace of mind. Thanks for all your input, nice setup you have there.

 

[KYregular]

We have good range days and bad range days.

After these shot groups were posted using factory Glock 22 barrel (9mm groups were shot with KKM/Lone Wolf barrels), there were many in disbelief (Guy shooting in the next lane said if he didn't see them with his own eyes, he wouldn't believe them either) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9645513

So I had Dudedog meet me at the range for in-person verification and got this group. Hands were rested on top of a small ice chest and fired fairly quick shots. I had slight stage fright with Dudedog watching but relaxed and shot as usual. Some days, we have good range days. - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9646469

Very nice groups. Planning on getting NRA certified and you have to place 16 out of 20 shots inside a 9" circle with a spread of no more than 6" at 15 yards. Bet that lot of yours would key hole that qualification. I've been meaning to try some BE-86 now your gonna make me wanna.

 

[Walkalong]

you have to place 16 out of 20 shots inside a 9" circle with a spread of no more than 6" at 15 yards.

Not overly difficult. bds's groups are much better than that.