Best Military/Hunting Rifle?

[HBK]

I thought about an AK 47, but I'm not real sure. The SKS sounds good too. For the self defense part I meant anything from a burgular to that unlikely invasion of a foreign or UN army. I definately want something bigger than a .233, but I'm not real sure what caliber would be best.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

223's got some advantages.


1. it's flat shooting, once you zero it at 250 yards or so, you're cool out to 350 or so.


2. if SHTF,you can scavenge it off the bodies of your foes.


3. most of the guns in .223 have good sights.

 

[Tommy Gunn]

I would check the local used gun market for a milsurp bolt-action rifle like the '03 Springfield, '98 Mauser, or the .303 Lee Enfield.

Buy a case of milsurp ammo, it will usually come on the stripper clips for fast loading. Handload for hunting ammo. You will get better accurracy that way.

I would get the bayonet too.

 

[Smokey Joe]

More stuff

Jaeger: Nice lookin' scout rifle! Col. Cooper would be pleased.

HBK: You now have at least THREE different scenarios you're trying to fit one weapon to. Really, you must consider getting more than 1 gun for all this. The burglar defense thing will be inside your house, you need something that is light and handy and won't shoot through the neighbors' house too. A rifle of just about any type is out of the question. The foreign invasion scenario will likely be plain old battle (think spray and pray) a'la WWII. This is where an autoloader with a banana clip would come in handy. If you're REALLY good at long range shooting, you might be a sniper, but no cruffle will handle that w/o serious and expensive modification. If that's the direction you want to go, you're better off buying one of the excellent heavy-bbl. rigs currently on the market; you'd have what you'd need right off the shelf, and at less fuss and cost. You'd also be equipped for beanfield hunting, and for getting into the long-range target competition business. Finally, for a "regular" hunting rifle, you need something that is light enough for you to carry all day and accurate enought for you to humanely kill your game at the ranges you normally shoot at. Some cruffles would do for a huntin' rifle with no modification, but you'd have to sacrifice some lightness, or accuracy, or good fit, or clean trigger pull, or all of the above, unless you rebuilt the rifle.

Hope I'm not sounding too negative hereÑjust trying to be realistic. If you still want to buy a cruffle and modify it, and plan to do all of the above with one rifle, who am I to say you mustn't? Jaeger got himself a nice huntin' gun that way.

Cartridge choice: For deer-size critters, you want 7.62x39 as a minimum. Definitely more than that if moose, elk, or bears are on the regular menu. .308 win. is OK, but for these larger animals, or if you regularly shoot 200 yd or more at your quarry, I'd go with .30-'06, 7.62x54R, or 8x57JS. (The ones mentioned here are all cruffle cartridges. Of course there are a multitude of other perfectly good cartridges available for commercial sporting arms.) Any particular cartridge you might pick will have its serious detractors and its rabid fans.

Whatever gun(s) you finally get, you gotta practice, practice, practice with it (them). Being able to use, effectively, whatever equipment you bring to whatever situationÑthat's the bottom line.

 

[Jaeger]

Thank you for the compliments. I am very pleased with it. You are correct about compromises though. My trigger is not as crisp as I'd like it to be and safety placement and operation is not ideal. I've trained with it though and am very effective with it. I won't be trading it any time soon!!

The 223 is actually a very good home defense round with the right ammo. It will pose less of an overpenetration threat than most handgun rounds. Blast and noise is considerable though.

 

[Kharn]

FAL/L1A1
The adjustable gas system will handle almost any load you can think of, and you can remove the gas piston and turn the gas plug to the grenade setting (doesnt vent any gas) in about 20 seconds if you need a non-semiauto to be legal for hunting.

Kharn

 

[Minuteman]

HBK,

Let me take a stab at a reply based on the information you've given so far.

You want a rifle that will serve the self defense function ranging from burglar to PHTF. So we're talking about a magazine-fed rifle, the magazines for which will hold at least 20 rounds each.

You want a rifle that is suitable for hunting deer and bear. At what ranges, we don't know yet, but weight is a consideration if you have to lug it around all day in the woods.

You've rightly ruled out the .223. There are numerous calibers that would fill the bill for your hunting needs, but only one caliber that would fill the bill for your defensive needs AND your hunting needs, and that's the 7.62 NATO round. Should the PHTF, you may not be able to rely on your personal ammo stores and my have to use "borrowed" or captured ammo. Any such enemy won't be using the .260 Remington or the .270 Winchester rounds.

So we're looking at .308 battle rifles, of which there are a few to choose from. If you don't already have it, invest in your own copy of Boston's Gun Bible before you make this purchase. Your choices are the AR10, the HK91/G3/CETME, the FAL, the M1A, and the Saiga/VEPR AK-style variants.

If your requirement was solely for defense purposes, I'd recommend the FAL because of its ubiquitous parts availability, plethora of accessories, and inexpensive build kits and magazines, but it's not the best rifle for hunting (less-than-ideal sights) unless you add a scope, thus making an already heavy rifle heavier.

If money is no object, I'd recommend the Springfield Armory M1A Scout/Squad rifle with a synthetic stock. With its 18" barrel and synthetic stock, it's lighter and handier than the FAL. The downside is that magazines are expensive (Cole's Distributing has the best mags at the best prices). You'll suffer no noticeable loss in accuracy over the 22" barrel M1A out to 500 yards.

If you're on a budget, I'd recommend looking at the Saiga and VEPR offerings in .308. Robinson Armament offers a good number of VEPR variants. Krebs Custom can modify your VEPR or Saiga to take 20-round M1A magazines at a later date.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Safety???

MinutemanÑI still don't see how he can effectively shoot a burglar in his house, with a .308 Win/7.62 NATO, without also shooting his next door neighbor with the same round. And if the burglar ducks around a corner, how's he going to quickly maneuver that big FAL into position? Too many compromises for too many different situations. HKB needs at least 2 separate firearms for the needs he has listed; probably 3 separate guns for the 3 applications, IMHO.

But this is just my $0.02/worth. Limited to one gun? Well, you make compromises.

 

[Minuteman]

Smokey,

You said: "I still don't see how he can effectively shoot a burglar in his house, with a .308 Win/7.62 NATO,..."

I'm trying to give HBK his options based on his parameters. And keep in mind that under the category of defense, HBK did say that it would range from burglar to PHTF-type situations. Clearly the best option for dealing with a burglar is a pistol or a shotgun, which I'm guessing/hoping HBK already has.

You said: "And if the burglar ducks around a corner, how's he going to quickly maneuver that big FAL into position?"

If you notice, I did not actually recommend the FAL as it doesn't suit both purposes for which HBK wants this rifle. I mentioned it as a good option among the more common .308 battle rifles IF his need were strictly PHTF. What you mention is another good reason for HBK not to go with the FAL, however.

[Tongue in cheek] And if that burglar did duck around a corner, HBK wouldn't have to maneuver a FAL, he could shoot the burglar right through the wall.

 

[geekWithA.45]

..still don't see how he can effectively shoot a burglar in his house, with a .308 Win/7.62 NATO,...

Sure, you can shoot em. And the 30 guys standing behind him as well. You just have to hope they're all bad.

 

[HBK]

I do have a few pistols for home defense. My only shotgun is a long way from here back home. Thanks for all the great advice. I'm sure it will come in handy helping me decide what to buy. Perhaps the best advice was to buy more than one rifle. .308 does seem to be the way to go.

 

[HBK]

I do have a few pistols for home defense. My only shotgun is a long way from here back home. Thanks for all the great advice. I'm sure it will come in handy helping me decide what to buy. Perhaps the best advice was to buy more than one rifle. .308 does seem to be the way to go.

 

[bblmelt]

AR15 for varmints? Now they tell me!

 

[Gewehr98]

Why modify anything at all?

Darned fun deer rifle! (Lessee if this torques Smokey Joe)

 

[Feanaro]

First, I would not recommend any of the following for defense as they are large and a bit bulky.

An HK-91/CETME(careful 'bout those CETMEs, some are real hunks of crap), FN FAL, M1 Garand or M1A are all good as both fighting rifles and for taking down deer. The ammo(30-06 and .308) is plentiful and powerful. The rifles are reliable and accurate for the most part. Myself, I'd take the Garand or the HK-91(Just cause I want one ). They are on the heavy side, yes. But even the AR variants floating around now are pushing ten pounds, so suck up, shut up and get on with it(sounds like something my grand-father would say).

That is of course just my take and is by no means the only valid one. But it works for me.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Yipe...the sound of Smokey Joe torquing

Gewehr98ÑNice looking Enfield! How's it shoot with the military rear sight? And do you like the short length of pull? My first centerfire was a No. 4 Mk. 1* which I bought as a teenager for I think 12.50 at a department store and took home on a public bus. (Needless to say, this was 'WAY before 1968!) I modified it it this way and that over the years, and ultimately sold it. I wish all my investments would appreciate like that, but I still wish I had it back.

BblmeltÑI bet the 'chuck never knew what hit him! I don't have a dedicated varmint gun myself. Guess you and I will just have to "get along" with our big bores.

It would seem that we have been all the way around the mulberry bush with HBK's question. Hope he's got what he wants for advice, and gets what he likes for a rifle!

 

[Gewehr98]

I left my No5Mk1 Jungle Carbine bone-stock.

It's an original issue, 1945 BSA manufacture. I like the 2-way rear peep, with the vernier elevation adjustment for the long-range half.

What I did do, however, was mitigate the so-called wandering zero. I used loctite on the king screw (AKA, action screw), glass-bedded the rifle's action, free-floated the barrel, and glass-bedded the forend under the forward band. This stabilized things greatly. See the pic below.



The short length of pull really hasn't been a problem to me, the peep sight is quite forgiving of eye relief. The light weight of the gun isn't too forgiving, especially with 174-180gr loads, but for hunting I don't feel very disadvantaged, I doubt I'd feel the recoil as I took a shot at the whitetail lined up in my sights. We'll know for sure this fall, when I take it home to Wisconsin for deer season.

From the "better living through innovative reloading" handbook:

As I was making another batch of 180gr ammo, I realized I had a whole bunch of 123gr AK bullets for another rainy day at the reloading bench. Voila'! So for fun and paper-punching/steel slapping, I run the 123gr AK bullets on top of a comfortable load of IMR4895. Recoil is quite diminished, but accuracy is just fine.

Some day I'm gonna put my No5Mk1 Jungle Carbine next to my NoIMkIII* SMLE, take a digicam picture, and illustrate the difference in size between these two Lee-Enfields.

 

[Maddogkiller]

FN FAL ! Reliable as an AK, shoots 308 Winchester cartidge, low recoil, 20 rd mags are $5.00 delivered, and you can get a great rifle for less than $700.