Best Semiautomatic DMR?

[JShirley]

You know, the M1A is the civilian version of the second least successful U.S. service rifle ever. I really don't think that's a rousing endorsement.

John

 

[H2O MAN]

You know, the M14 is still in service... and more of the last true US battle rifles are retuning to service every day.

The Modernized M14 is kicking ass... and that's one hell of an endorsement.

 

[lipadj46]

Heck, I know that as a student of military history. The lever action Winchester rifles are definitely a perfect example.

One of the guns that "won the west", indian wars, cowboys and all that. I'm not trying to dis your new rifle I just doubt it is going to be "legendary" one day. Unless of course someone climbs a clock tower with it and starts picking off civilians or something but that would be more like infamous. FN wanted to make some money off their rights to the BAR technology so they made a accurate "black" rifle. It's a good rifle but is overshadowed by it's more legendary ilk.

 

[Bill_Rights]

lipadj46,

I think you are addressing your comment to me, BR, and the cadre of FNAR early adopters and proponents. You are correct. It will be hard for a civilian/LE DMR to achieve legendary status, if legendary status is based upon number of people killed with it. Heck, we don't even yet know which rifle(s) the SEALs used to simultaneously pick off the three Somali pirates last week. For whatever reason, the government is tight-lipped about what exact equipment its marksmen and snipers use. Hence, no publicity = no legend. But I take exception to the idea that ONLY the military or miltary use can confer legendary status upon a firearm. Someday I'll expound on that. I take my position having already said (this thread, 19th Apr '09):

there is no greater admirer of the US Military than me

 

[LoneRider]

You know, the M14 is still in service... and more of the last true US battle rifles are retuning to service every day.

The Modernized M14 is kicking ass... and that's one hell of an endorsement.

The SEALs use the EBR (Enhanced Battle Rifle) which is an M-14 derivative. That's one hell of an endorsement.

But I take exception to the idea that ONLY the military or miltary use can confer legendary status upon a firearm.

I tend to agree with Bill Rights. Legendary status on a firearm can be bestowed by historians too. Ever heard of the Kentucky Long Rifles of our founding fathers that felled many a redcoat during the Revolutionary War? Many of those tales of frontiersman marksmanship survive because historians wrote them down and perpetuated them.

 

[Zak Smith]

JShirley,

Thanks for the referral.

Along with the 3-Gun article you linked to, this one is relevant as well.


article | Fighting Carbine Optics


With this thesis statement particularly relevant:

With those facts set out, it becomes clear that carbine capability is primarily determined by the sighting system. The same weapon could be optimized for door kicking, close to mid-range engagements with target identification requirements, or can be stretched to the cartridge's ballistic limit by merely changing the optic.

The "DMR" or "SDM" role includes what I call a "Type II" engagements in the article.

 

[lipadj46]

But I take exception to the idea that ONLY the military or miltary use can confer legendary status upon a firearm. Someday I'll expound on that

Kind of a pointless argument because most likely will will be dead by the time it is settled but I am polish so I will argue away...

I guess I just do not see how the FNAR will become legendary in the present time (no indians, no frontier etc.) without it being used in some military/paramilitary conflict. Maybe if it is still around being used with the future weapons in 100 years like a Browning A5 then it can be called a legend. Personally I think it will be remembered as a footnote in the BAR history as a very accurate and affordable adaptation of the BAR hunting rifle platform. The fact is though that the same accuracy is achievable on many other platforms including the AR, M14 and most of the bolt rifles. It does do it much cheaper than the M14 and G3 platforms. Even today I can buy an AR with a heavy 24" barrel for ~$1200 that will shoot with the FNAR plus it will have iron sights.

Again I'm not saying the FNAR is a bad rifle, it is a very nice accurate relatively affordable rifle. But it does not stand out above the most popular accurizeable semi auto platform namely the AR (except that it is a piston design which I like).

To make this relevant, to the OP, M14 DM Rifles are the best and Ron Smith must be a witch based on how accurate he get's old M14's to shoot, burn him!!!

 

[JShirley]

more of the last true US battle rifles are retuning to service every day.

The Modernized M14 is kicking ass... and that's one hell of an endorsement.

You know, the M14 seems to be especially popular with a certain class of shooters. These usually are the same guys that believe we lost in Vietnam because we (1)lost the will to fight, and (2)went with a little sissy rifle.

All the shooters I actually respect will quickly point out the numerous deficiencies with the M14/M1A, when used with an optic. Yes, it has good sights. Yay.

The M14 was not a successful weapons system, and not a very successful rifle. In civilian form, it's mostly been kept alive by shooters who misunderstand fairly recent military history, preferring instead to embrace popular myths.

When I was in Afghanistan a couple of years ago, we had an entire Conex full of them. The Conex was full because we weren't using them. When I was pushed out to a little ODA camp, all the cool-guy SF types were using them, right? No. In fact, I talked with the 18B of the the second Group that worked out of that fire base (I never saw the first Group with any M14s at all), and he mentioned what a pain in the rump the M14 was to work with for accurized work. He preferred the Knight's or just moving up to the Barrett...

John

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Yea or just "move up towards the Barrett", that's a good one, get their 20" model it'll be a BLAST to shoot, not to mention a HELLUVA more expensive

 

[JShirley]

Point being- I'm sorry if I'm being redundantly obvious- that if the M14 as an accurized rifle system was the be-and-end-all, it would have been a lot more in evidence in a place where any shot was almost certain to be 500 meters or further. Here's a picture of me on the "range".

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Yea, get the Barrett M82 20" model, that'll knock em' down after going through a foot of concrete

 

[JShirley]

Do you have an actual point, or are you going to keep repeating the same basic statement different ways?

 

[P.B.Walsh]

If your talking about my Barrett comments, I didn't think the last one went through, sorry.

 

[gvnwst]

Do you have an actual point, or are you going to keep repeating the same basic statement different ways?

Come on, he's just a kid.

To the OP: for me, the AR platform is ideal, my main AR is a 18" SPR. I am hoping to get a DPMS AR-10 in .260 sometime in the (not so near) future, if they are still legal then.

 

[LoneStarWings]

To me, the M14 was replaced because it was not as controllable as the M16 in automatic fire. It seems weight + automatic fire were top priorities for the military at the time, moreso than accuracy or reliability. Those of us who are civilians don't really have the option for automatic weapons unless we want to go through legal hoops and spend enough money for a decent car on a rifle. Point being, for the DMR role that advantage for the AR really isn't relevant, especially outside of the military.

With that said, if you want nothing but accuracy you're better off going with an AR platform in 7.62x51, and you should be able to get 1/2 MOA pretty easly. It will also be easier to put an optic on the AR, but it's certainly doable on the M14 and there are several good mounts out there even if you don't go with a high-tech stock. You will need a cheek pad for the normal stocks. The main advantage I would give to the M1A is reliability over most AR's. Weight should be about equal, as most 7.62 based AR's designed for accuracy seem to be pushing 12+ lbs. Every design is a trade off. Heck even my bottom of the line unomodified M14-based M1A is capable of 1/2 MOA with the right ammo.

My best friend was USMC Scout Sniper in the 02-06 time frame, served in Iraq and swore by the M-14. He got plenty of kills with it, and preferred it to the AR as a DMR. I wasn't there to see what happened, but I take his word for it.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Thanks for the backup G.

If I had the money I'd go with an AR like the M110, or the DPMS SASS, or a POF or LWRC upper because you've got a piston on an AR platform.

Of course it'd have to be in .308 for a full blown custom rifle (LWRC provides .223 and 6.8 only.....bummer..... If only they'd make a .308 model, sigh....)


Just my thoughts........

 

[LoneRider]

Sounds good.

I know for a fact now that I'm gonna go for the Armalite based DMR systems because of familiarity with the maintenance, marksmanship and other aspects of the system.

Now it's gonna be between 7.62 or 5.56. I'm leaning towards 5.56 because of accuracy and again, plenty of use with said ammunition.

 

[Bill_Rights]

LoneRider,

'Case you hadn't noticed, your thread has taken on several lives of its own. We saw that you made your decision about 35 posts ago. GREAT THREAD!.

lipadj46,

Geez, I can now remember how to spell your screen name without looking it up. OK, I give up. I and my FNAR (or two, or three w/ different optics) will labor along in obscurity. No need for legendary status, no hope of getting it.

The more I think about it, the more I recall that that is why I picked the FNAR in the first place. I wanted a DMR-type platform that not recognizable as an AR. Especially by the government. Doubly especially by the antis. I wanted, and still want, all the functionality of a professional DMR, but I wanted to "fly under the radar" so to speak. I mean the radar of gun regulators and citizens that might potentially take offense and become antis.

'Course if I had really wanted only that, I'd have just stuck with the famous Browning BAR Mark II, the most popular semi-auto hunting rifle in history, gorgeous in the "Safari" (high end) dress:

See Chuck Hawks review wherein he discusses low recoil, ability to handle the larger cartridges .30-06, .338 WinMag , etc. and rapid sight-picture recovery)

This is kinda the ultimate "stealth" nowadays. Extremely deadly weapon platform disguised as a mere civilian hunting rifle. Still available at $200 less than an FNAR.

But I had to have the black plastic ruggedized stock and the larger cap mags. The fluted barrel(s) and tac rails. Hence the FNAR. No one knows or recognizes the FNAR anyway, so I get the best of both worlds.

Just some perspective for our OP and others reading along and considering the DMR genre. It is a catagory of rifles well worth considering in these times.

 

[LoneRider]

'Case you hadn't noticed, your thread has taken on several lives of its own. We saw that you made your decision about 35 posts ago. GREAT THREAD!.

You're absolutely right. I have made my decision on what platform. Now I've just gotta figure on caliber (7.62 or 5.56).

Here are the merits and downsides of both calibers I've selected.

7.62

Pros:

1- Long reach
2- Accurate and boasts good stopping power
3- Ammunition readily available.

Cons

1- Can't carry as many rounds per pound as 5.56
2- Recoil as compared to a 5.56
3- Not as familiar with this particular round as I am with the 5.56

5.56

Pros

1- Accuracy
2- Familiarity
3- Ammunition availability

Cons

1- Stopping power
2- Range as compared to the 7.62
3- Round is prone to being affected by winds more easily for longer range shots.

Any inputs on what to chamber my AR-15 DMR in?

 

[lipadj46]

This is kinda the ultimate "stealth" nowadays. Extremely deadly weapon platform disguised as a mere civilian hunting rifle.

That is why I have my M1A in a wooden stock. With the 5 round magazine and a scope it just looks like a hunting rifle (well that is what I use it for so it is a hunting rifle).

 

[Maverick223]

Any inputs on what to chamber my AR-15 DMR in?

I personally would go with 6.5 Grendel, however I do not think you will agree due to the lack of ammunition availability at this time. It seems to be a fairly do-all round for this particular platform. It has relatively light weight in a compact package whilst maintaining long-range accuracy and knock down. I feel it grossly outperforms the 6.8SPC. Between 5.56 and 7.62 I would have to choose 7.62 due to the range limitations and "terminal punch".

 

[gvnwst]

Any inputs on what to chamber my AR-15 DMR in?

If its a AR-15, i would go with 6.5g, if you can afford it. If not, 5.56. Now, if you want to step up to the AR-10....then you decide. I got a 5.56 becasue it is cheaper, but now i haev one. My next long range AR upper is going to be in 6mmBR.

I feel it grossly outperforms the 6.8SPC.

I agree totally. For a LR build, the 6.8 has pratically no place, for its price.

 

[JShirley]

Stopping power

Really? With regards to stopping a human threat?

You get to use expanding ammunition and everything.

Personally, I'm not at all worried about it*. And I'd rather have 370 rounds of .223 than 200 rounds of .308 any day of the week.


*But then, I think there's entirely too much internet dithering about magic bullets and such. My first priority is to put a hole in the threat. If I can carry more ammo, I can put holes in more threats.

John

 

[kcmarine]

Well, if you wanted the ultimate in reliability and in accuracy, a piston- driven AR10 is right up your alley. Haven't ever seen one, unfortunately. You could be the one to design and build it. What happens then? Profit, lots and lots of profit .

The real question is, what is the space around you like? Where do you go shooting, usually? That's the main determinant of what caliber you should choose. If it's a suburb, 5.56. If you live out in the country, get the 7.62. Hopefully, you'll never have to actually use the thing like that (and probably never will), so remember, keep it fun for the range, too.

 

[Maverick223]

Really? With regards to stopping a human threat?

Think he was referring to stopping a lg. animal/human target at longer ranges; 5.56 does quite well [especially with HP ammo] at shorter ranges on a human target and can penetrate pretty well. I built my own target out of 3/8" mild steel for close range work with 5.56 HP, left about .30 cal holes straight through, not exactly the desired result but it left me pretty impressed.

i would go with 6.5g, if you can afford it. If not, 5.56.

...or both, get good with the 5.56, then step it up to the 6.5G with a new upper.