best trail round for autoloader handgun

[Thompsoncustom]

Wow. amazing numbers. Thank you for that suggestion, I think. I've spent all this time trying to learn more about 10mm, and now a whole new cartridge to consider. But.... those are some amazing numbers claimed by BB, Corbon and Underwood.

Any personal experience?
PE

I have personal experience with the 460 rowland in the 1911 platform. Tho we havent ran it over my chrono i would believe those numbers that underwood claims. Even with the massive compensator on the 1911 it kicks like a mule but is super fun. I dont think you can run any autoloader without a compensator and 460 rowland.

 

[gotboostvr]

No, I don't have any personal experience with the 460 Rowland yet.
I've got a Norinco that is just gathering dust waiting for me to convert it.
When/if I convert it, instead of chasing max velocities I'll find what MY tolerance is and find a nice shooting load in that range.
My 44mag load isn't pushing super high numbers, but it's squarely in the realm of 44mag energy and is something I can work my way through 100rds of and not be worse for wear after.

45 super might be a more practical endeavor, consisting of only a few easily reversed changes. A 250gr RNFP@1000fps will accomplish just about anything that needs doing and shouldn't be abusive to the shooter in a large metal framed gun ala 1911, SIG P220, CZ97B et al.

I HAVE been meaning to play with 45 supers out of my S&W625. It should handle them with aplomb. All I need is the brass and some load data.

 

[Woolecox]

Professional guides where I have hunted and fished in bear country (Rockies, Canada, Alaska) all have carried 44 Mag’s in a chest rig.

That allows them to carry a backpack/meat board and still get to their weapon. All have used revolvers. Most have been Ruger Super Red Hawks. That is what I have. One guy in Idaho last year had this light weight Ruger made out of scandium or something.

Some also carry a speed loader or two on their rigs. I have yet to meet the man that can outrun a bear, lion, or pack of super wolves.

I bet if you weigh a fully loaded Glock 10mm with full mag and a couple of spares, it will be very close to the revolver if not more. My gun pictured below.

 

[Silent Sam]

I have some experience with the 460 Rowland. It is the most power you can pack in a standard semi auto. I have chronographed 185gr, 200gr, and 230gr loads and the advertised velocities are real. 230gr @ 1300+, 200gr @ 1400+, and 185gr @ 1500+ fps out of a 5" barrel. I personally don't feel the compensator is "massive" but it is required (as are the springs) to keep from battering your pistol to pieces. Neither do I feel it "kicks like a mule". The extra weight of the comp at the end of the barrel and the brake effect it provides reduces felt recoil. It also greatly reduces muzzle flip. It is more recoil than a std 45 acp. You can't defy physics but it is easily controllable if you are familiar with hi powered handguns. It is easily converted back and forth between 45 acp and 460 Rowland.

Kimber Target II w/ Clark Custom 460 Rowland Kit and AlumaGrips.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Curiosity got the better of me since I originally posted and I ran across this, among many others on the webz, which backs my original statement. Just sayin'...


"A 12-gauge shotgun is one of the most effective close-range bear guns. There are quite a few semi-autos that are typically reliable, but in the field they can be very finnicky at the worst times. You can’t go wrong with a pump, though, and the 870 is my favorite. With a shorter barrel and either slugs or 00 buck, it will pack a huge punch if a bear is close and coming hard. The biggest advantage of the shotgun, especially with buckshot, is that it’s much faster and more forgiving than a rifle when you’re trying to get lead into a moving bear. This is probably the best bear defense gun you can have."



http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/g...-guns-brown-bear-hunting-and-defense/?image=5

 

[Onmilo]

Curiosity got the better of me since I originally posted and I ran across this, among many others on the webz, which backs my original statement. Just sayin'...


"A 12-gauge shotgun is one of the most effective close-range bear guns. There are quite a few semi-autos that are typically reliable, but in the field they can be very finnicky at the worst times. You can’t go wrong with a pump, though, and the 870 is my favorite. With a shorter barrel and either slugs or 00 buck, it will pack a huge punch if a bear is close and coming hard. The biggest advantage of the shotgun, especially with buckshot, is that it’s much faster and more forgiving than a rifle when you’re trying to get lead into a moving bear. This is probably the best bear defense gun you can have."



http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/g...-guns-brown-bear-hunting-and-defense/?image=5

I certainly won't argue this point.
After blowing up a 10mm my conclusions were, it is a GOOD cartridge when used in a pistol that can maximize the ballistic potential of the cartridge and that cannot be attained until you increase the barrel length to six inches or better to take full advantage of the burn rate of the powders needed to propel 200 grain bullets at maximum velocity.
Most of the factory stuff available is a .40 S&W Long or at best, a +P .40 S&W

I'm still wanting a G40 Glock but took my name off the waiting list after more than a year of waiting.
If I run across one I will buy it.
In the real world a good 5" barrelled .45 or 9mm will do fine work as a trail gun

 

[JohnnyFlake]

It really amazes me, all the talk about 10mm, because of high mag capacity and other magical rounds like the .460 that requires a specialized gun and compensators, etc. and then again about rifles and shotguns, which have no business in this thread. They are not what the OP was asking about.

I doubt that very many people will question the the stopping power of a 12ga pump, with slugs or "OO" against a bear!

Instead of thinking up all these ideal guns, why not simply go with a proven, hard hitting gun. I said it above and I'll say it again, a quality full size 5" barrel 1911 .45acp, with the following ammo:

Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Ammo
.45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN Ammo - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.) Round Boxes.

No matter how many rounds your gun holds, unless you already have your gun in your hand, when you see the bear, if it's charging you, you'll be very lucky to get 2 or 3 rounds off, before it's on you! If your shot placement is where they need to be, that ammo will do the job.

 

[Malamute]

It really amazes me that shotgun slugs are so often suggested without further comment, as if all slugs were created equal, or were good penetrators.

Its also interesting that the above mentioned 45 auto load is considered pretty stout, when its a black powder level 45 Colt load. Not that its a wimp, just not exactly anything special in the handgun power realm.

 

[Onmilo]

It really amazes me that shotgun slugs are so often suggested without further comment, as if all slugs were created equal, or were good penetrators.

Its also interesting that the above mentioned 45 auto load is considered pretty stout, when its a black powder level 45 Colt load. Not that its a wimp, just not exactly anything special in the handgun power realm.

It's true.
Brenneke and BRI slugs are amazing in the capacity to punch through thick skinned fast moving living things at relatively close ranges.

I should mention the old full power .45 Colt blackpowder load was considered a fine horse killer.
From what the history books tell us, quite a few mountain men and gold seekers were crunched up and pooped out by big bears when they took them on with their horse pistols...

 

[BigBore45]

The long and short of it is that your most likely going to have to make a brain or spinal cord hit to stop an attack. That being said. Moose are way more dangerous than black bear. You will need great and lucky shot placement and adequate penetration.

If a revolver is out of the question I would go with 460 Rowland.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM-s1Jnfa9o



Just something to think about. No it's not "real life" but I feel it's a fairly accurate depiction aside from the size of the bear that most would encounter.

Notice how many shots were gotten off when the realization that a bear was actually present/charging.

 

[HB]

I only read the first page but honestly a 22 rides on my hip in the woods. I shoot a lot of rabbits and squirrels, and rocks and cans. I've yet to encounter anything in the woods that "needed" to be shot.

HB

 

[Onmilo]

I only read the first page but honestly a 22 rides on my hip in the woods. I shoot a lot of rabbits and squirrels, and rocks and cans. I've yet to encounter anything in the woods that "needed" to be shot.

HB

I live in Illinois so, the only critters that need be shot here when encountered in the woods are coyote, vermin beast that they are, and meth heads out sneaking around trying to steal anhydrous,,,
I too favor a .22 or .32 acp for woods walking but most rustic areas in this state, short of my own and some friends property, deny woods walkers the right to pack a handgun.
Heck one cannot even carry a handgun when running a trapline here.

 

[kitsapshooter]

If you choose a 460 rowwland you btter make the first shot really good. The recoil on that gun is not bad buut it has a huge rate of lift from recoil. I have tried it in a auto but i would expect it be be very close to the same.

 

[Silent Sam]

Not so... the comp keeps the muzzle down. Recoil is pretty much straight back.

 

[Woolecox]

I've yet to encounter anything in the woods that "needed" to be shot.

Me neither but have come close a couple times. Once when fishing in Alaska in the summer time. Big brown bears very active. Felt a little uneasy with the three of us hiking out with backpacks full of salmon fillets. The foliage was very dense and you could not see more than a few feet. Only one of us had a hog leg. I stayed close to him. Two groups had their stringers taken from them that day by bears. No injuries.

Another time was Elk hunting in Northern Idaho. Walking down an old over grown log road and blowing on a cow call, we could smell the super wolves but could not see them. Made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

 

[bassdogs]

X2 on shots fired. Said the same thing in an earlier post. Whatever you carry in the woods where bears hang out had better be close at hand when you need it. Thinking you can get something from a backpack exterior pouch or a holster under your parka is wishful thinking. Yes there are circumstances where extra rounds might be helpful but they are at a minimum when it comes to a bear attack. Choosing a 10mm that you don't shoot on a regular basis and may have a long barrel and compensator, all making a fast draw difficult, is not a good choice no matter how hard hitting that round might be.

 

[captainamerica]

In MO there can be small to medium sized packs of coyotes, small numbers of aggressive bobcat, and cougar. Word is still out that black bear is south of I-70. I always have something large enough for cougar.

 

[Steve Cover]

you're not in my neck of the woods so I would go with a 10mm if possible.

357 Sig is a great round and will weigh a little less than 10mm but you may as well get the most powerful you can if you are really worried about it.

That being said you are about to get a TON of replies telling you to get bear spray, practice smart woodsmanship, store you food properly, and that you will need a gun more for 2 legged critters than 4.

So make sure you do and understand the above.

I flew the bush in Alaska for seven years.

Let me tell you that bear spray usually just makes them mad.
We also tried Brahma Bull strength electric fences around our camp sites.
That didn't work either.

Use a 12 Ga. with HEAVY slugs not spray if you are charged by a bear..

As stated above smart woodmanship is a better option.


Steve

 

[TRX]

My concept of "loaded for bear" requires wheelgun power; .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .480 Ruger, .500 S&W.

You're not talking about a gun that's fun to shoot, you're talking about a tool to save your life.

 

[agtman]

15+1 Glock 40 (6.02" barrel) loaded hot with FMJ or heavy FP cast stuff. Carry it in a center-chest AG holster.

Much easier to pack over a long outing in the wilds than any boat-anchor magnum wheelgun, obviously it has more capacity, and is quicker and more accurate on follow-up shots.

G40.


Alaskan Guide Holster.
http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php

This holster set-up makes carrying and manipulating a rifle or shotty easier, but it obviously keeps the G40 ready and accessible should you leave or put the long arm down somewhere when Mr. Bear shows up.

 

[Leanwolf]

BassDog - " Well the reality is that if ever confronted by a piss*d off Brown bear or Moose that is charging in your direction, you will need lots of practice to even get one or 2 shots off before the beast is on top of you. If you have time to empty a full mag at a running bear, the bear is not charging at you or it is at least 50 yards out. Instead of worrying about spraying the tree line, you need to be packing what is likely to do the best job in the first 2 shots."

First, I am of the "Carry whatever you like and with which you can hit accurately ," school.

That said, I am always reminded of what the late, great pistolero, Bill Jordan, wrote, "You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight." To paraphrase, "You can't miss fast enough to win a bear fight."

A real down-'n-dirty Black, Griz, or Brown (Kodiak) bear charging, as several have stated, will give you no more than one, two, or at best, three shots ... and you'd better make 'em count.

If I were going to carry a pistol in Black bear country (no Griz or Kodiak Brown bears where I go in the mountains ) I'd carry my Colt 1911 .45 ACP with my handloads using a 230 grains Hornady FMJ flat nose bullet. With one in the chamber and eight in the magazine, I'd not worry excessively.

Just my opinion.

L.W.

 

[Steve Cover]

First, I am of the "Carry whatever you like and with which you can hit accurately ," school.

That said, I am always reminded of what the late, great pistolero, Bill Jordan, wrote, "You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight." To paraphrase, "You can't miss fast enough to win a bear fight."

A real down-'n-dirty Black, Griz, or Brown (Kodiak) bear charging, as several have stated, will give you no more than one, two, or at best, three shots ... and you'd better make 'em count.

If I were going to carry a pistol in Black bear country (no Griz or Kodiak Brown bears where I go in the mountains ) I'd carry my Colt 1911 .45 ACP with my handloads using a 230 grains Hornady FMJ flat nose bullet. With one in the chamber and eight in the magazine, I'd not worry excessively.

Just my opinion.

L.W.

I fully agree.
Also, a properly loaded 10MM would be OK for the average Black Bear.
But for Big Bear, a lot more gun is necessary.
15+1 is useless if you can only get off 2 or 3 rounds before being bulldozed over.

Steve

 

[barnbwt]

Depends on the job;

Backpacking, hiking/camping, or hunting/bear country?
22LR, 9mm, or 10mm, respectively.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

15+1 is useless if you can only get off 2 or 3 rounds before being bulldozed over.

*not a comment on your comment, necessarily* It always kills me how this logic is rarely applied to human altercations (that you'll only likely get a couple shots off, regardless the outcome)

As far as big bears, no practical handgun is really much of an option. I mean, man-eating grizzlies are like maybe half a notch lower on the totem pole than legit monsters from Africa or South America. You simply need a rifle or powerful shotgun slug to have any kind of parity with them. A less-powerful 10mm or even 9mm has a much better chance of getting through one of the unarmored spots (eyes, for instance) and killing the beast in a flurry of shots than a much slower/heavier magnum firing powerful cartridges; are the increased number of lethal strike-points the more powerful round offers really that much of a game-changer given their still relatively-small size and the fact you're certain to get far fewer controlled shots off? Either way is a poor bet, by my estimation. When poking big bears, carry a big stick (long gun)

TCB