Autoloader choices for bear "deterrence"?

[basicblur]

I’m sure this has been discussed many times, but I’m having trouble matching the exact words in search to narrow it down a bit, so here goes!

Hopefully we’ll be able to carry in national parks soon, so I’m doing some research into weapons big enough to discourage a bear should I happen upon one in the woods. Biggest thing I currently have is a number of 40 S&W and a P229R in 357 SIG. I’m assuming the 357 SIG would be the best in my present inventory due to more penetration, but I would like something a bit more effective against a bear. Yeah, I know I’m going to get answers like a 357 SIG/40 S&W/ ? is useless against a bear, but unfortunately it has to be a balancing act AFA size, weight, etc.
My criteria so far:
1. Semi-auto (prefer to stay away from revolvers, but realize that may not be an option).
2. Nothing “ridiculous” (Desert Eagle 50 etc) as it’s gotta be wearable for extended periods and “reasonably” sized.
3. Reasonably priced!
4. Would rather stay away from Glocks

I’m thinking 10mm may be the only choice I have with items 1&2, although I don’t know how reasonably priced a 10mm auto is going to be (Colt Delta Elites look interesting, but pricey)! I’m also not sure how many folks make new 10mm-still doing some digging on that (think someone said Witness makes ‘em?).

Any and all suggestions welcome, even if your choice doesn’t necessarily meet all my criteria (it’ll give me something to think about).

Thanks

 

[BlindJustice]

#1 Let's assume you're talking Black Bear

I think you need to consider bullet weight

Bears have a thick skin of fur and fat,

SOme say the minimum for a revolver is
.357 Mag. 158 gr. solid constructed bullet
or autoloader
.45 ACP +P 230 gr. again good bullet construction

that's as low as the bar goes

R-

 

[Whitman31]

If your looking for a 10mm, and want the most bang for your buck, the consensus is usually a Dan Wesson. I'm very fond of mine. I'm looking into a longside 10mm from Fusion, gonna have to save up a bit for that one though.

Glock, Colt, Kimber, Dan Wesson, and Fusion all make new 10mm autos, I'm sure there are a number of others as well.

I won't offer any advice as to what is adequate for bear "deterance", as I don't have any first had experience in that dept.

 

[loplop]

First of all, I don't think there is any "deterrance" to a handgun when it comes to a bear. You're either shooting the bear, or you're not. You're either being attacked, or not. If you want to "deter" the bear, use pepper spray. And if you need to shoot the bear to defend life, you want a big, hard, fast caliber. You really don't want to make the bear mad. You want to make him dead.

For that, you want a revolver, IMO. I know Colt once advertised the Super .38 as being able for all NA creatures, furry and all... And some say the 10mm might be a good compromise... But I just tend to think "revolver!" when I think of open country carry; big calibers, lots of power.

I admit to really hoping the Nat'l Park carry law passes. I'll be hipping a 44 mag, then, which IMO is comfortable enough to wear all day, and probably reasonably effective. Maybe you could consider one of the bigger S&W's, too. I do feel a little "naked" hiking in the backcountry in Yellowstone with only a whippy trout rod and some pepper spray to season my carcass...

Of course, the liklihood of a bear attack which necessitates the use of deadly force is QUITE SMALL. But all the same...

FWIW YMMV, good luck!

 

[AnaxImperator]

My first suggestion for an anti-bear autoloader would be an FN Five-seveN, which also comes with three 10 or 20-round magazines. The 5.7x28mm round was designed to penetrate & tumble/fragment, and I have no doubt that one of those would drill through a bear's muscle & bone quite nicely. And for $899, I'd say that's a reasonable price; considering what you get, and that a Smith & Wesson Model 327 TRR8 (.357 Mag w/ 8-rounds) or S&W Model 460V will set you back a cool $1,335 & $1,359 respectively.

Here's some gelatin tests of the 5.7x28 from BrassFetcher.com:
SS195 FMJ and SS197 ballistic tip (bare and heavy clothing)
FN SS195 lead-free FMJ

While IMHO it's the best bet for taking down an angry bruin, if the Five-seveN doesn't appeal to you then a 10mm would be my next choice. Gelatin Test: Remington 180gr. JHP

And lastly, if you really want to go cheap (but not cheap )....
Get your hands on a 7.62mm Tokarev & a spare 9mm barrel, and rechamber the 9x19 barrel to 9x23mm Winchester. That's it. No other modifications to the pistol are needed. Very cool.
The 9x23Win has the .357Mag's penetration, but having a larger projectile allows it to create a bigger wound-cavity. I couldn't find any gello-tests for the 9x23, but I did pick up Winchester's specs.

9x23mm
Muzzle Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1450fps / 583
.357 Magnum
Muzzle Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1235fps / 535

An VG/EX quality Tokarev in 7.62x25mm can be had for as little as $200-$250, while a spare 9mm TT-33 barrel can be found for $100 on average. Once you're out of the woods (literally & figuratively ), all you have to do is swap the 7.62 barrel back in, and you're ready to have inexpensive fun plinking. And there's no doubt that the Tokarev can handle 9x23mm; the TT-33 is an extremely strong design, meant to handle high-power subgun ammunition, and have full circumference locking-lugs on the barrel rather than the half circumference lugs on a standard 1911 barrel. A couple of Tokarev owners on Gunsnet have done the 9x23 conversion, and have reported no ill-effects.

However, be aware that revolvers have one distinct advantage over semiautos in the bear-defense department. If attacked by a bear, there's a good chance that it'll charge and be on top of you before you get a good shot in. At that point, if you've managed to draw your sidearm, the first shot will very likely be a contact shot and if so, an autoloader will jam due to the slide being interferred with. Thus, the revolver holds the anti-bear advantage.

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

No offense, but I think the Five-seveN is a poor choice for this application. It's just too small a bullet for too big an animal. It's essentially a .22 WMR, for Pete's sake.

To the OP,
If you must stay with an auto, I'd suggest a Glock 20 loaded with DoubleTap 200 gr. XTP's.

If you were to utilize your .357 SIG for this purpose, I'd say load it up with Fiocchi 140 gr. FMJ's.

I think the ideal way to go is a good double action wheelgun in .44 Magnum or .454 Casull.

 

[Whitman31]

I have no doubt that one of those would drill through a bear's muscle & bone quite nicely

I do...

A 40 grain round moving at under 2000fps, dancing around 300ft/lbs. At best the 5X7 could be called a 223lite. This round wouldn't meet the legal requirements to take deer in some states, let alone defend against bear.

The 10mm, being among the lightest mentioned here is throwing out numbers like 180grs @ 1200fps thumping at 600+ft/lbs.

I've heard this line before, at my local pawn shop...

 

[EHL]

I'm surprised no body has mentioned the .460 Roland. I'd defintely opt for that over any wheel gun any day of the week. It's in a very comfortable format.(1911) Reloading is a breeze compared to a wheel gun, and you can even have it attached to you via the lanyard loop on the mainspring housing. This is ideal if you are high in a tree or have to climb one quickly. Stopping power is definetly in the realm of a good 44 Mag too.

 

[BlindJustice]

+1 EHL - WIlson Combat makes one, and probably Fusion as well.

FWIW
.45 ACP 230 gr. Gold Dot from Double Tap is 1,010 FPS

Randall

 

[jeepmor]

I personally carry a S&W 1076 stocked with Double Tap WFNGC 200 grain pills for just that role. Most black bear mind their manners and avoid human contact when possible.

Personally, I'm more comfortable with the WFNGC bullet than an XTP as I think penetration is more important on a bear than mushrooming. But, with a black bear, I don't think it would make much difference. That said, I wouldn't skip a weekend in the woods if I only had 10mm XTP loads.

 

[rcmodel]

An FN Five-seveN? Omg! :banghead:

Personally, I think a bear defense gun should be a .44 Mag S&W DA revolver, loaded with heavy hard-cast SWC bullets.

I love auto pistols!
But they don't work with the muzzle jammed into a bear on top of you.

Or with bear hair stuffed in the ejection port.

And they can't be cleared with one arm in a bears mouth up to the elbow!

A DA revolver will put 6 heavy slugs, for sure, clear through a black bear, and break heavy bones on any type of bear.

rcmodel

 

[Farnorthdan]

.454 Casull

Picked this beauty up Saturday, Colt Delta Elite 10mm 90%-95% for $595 out the door. http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...n/DSC03196.jpg

BUT....I might consider carrying it for a small blackie but definitely not a brown.

For heavy bruins the only thing I carry(when carrying a pistol only) here in the Great state of Alaska is the Ruger .454 Casull, heavy bullet (300gns) with a very high terminal velocity (1600 fps handloaded) for deep penetration and absolute put down power.

For true and far superior protection though, I will be carrying a 12g shotgun with slugs or a heavy lever action like a marlin .444 or similar. I have had to face down many browns and blacks alike but have only every put them down with a shotgun or large caliber hunting rifle from a distance (.375 H&H)....jsut my .02

 

[basicblur]

45 ACP +P 230 gr. again good bullet construction

Well I hadn’t really thought of the 45, specially since I never bothered with +P etc as up until now I’ve never been worried about stopping something bigger than a human. I’ve got a 1991A1 compact & Taurus PT145-may do a bit more research in this area, but I’d probably want something with a longer barrel for more fps?, and possibly a bit more magazine capacity than the 1991A1 compact has.

Glock, Colt, Kimber, Dan Wesson, and Fusion all make new 10mm autos

I wasn’t aware Colt still made new 10mm-their website is pretty bad, and it doesn’t seem they want to mess with individual sales. Everything but the Glock I’m sure is going to be pricey-I’ve never been much of a Glock fan (don’t fit my hand well) but I may end up with one. Not familiar with Fusion but I’ll do some checking.

My first suggestion for an anti-bear autoloader would be an FN Five-seveN

Interesting…I’d like to see more discussion on this one! I’ve glanced at ‘em but they slipped my mind. I like the capacity, penentration, etc, but as stated, I wonder ‘bout bullet size?

First of all, I don't think there is any "deterrance" to a handgun when it comes to a bear. You're either shooting the bear, or you're not.

Semantics, my good man! Waddya think I’m going to do-wave it in the air and yell “Hey Mr. Bear…I have a gun”!
I can assure you if the need arises, I’ll be shooting and shooting and shooting and (well, you get the idea). Might still be pulling the trigger on an empty weapon when they find me!
When I said deterrence, I meant to stop him-if that requires shooting him until he (hopefully) dies, so be it. If that requires shooting him until he decides I’m not worth it, well that’s OK also-I ain’t gonna pop him in the ass if he’s leaving-he might have second thoughts if I did!

Keep ‘em coming-getting lots to research!

 

[basicblur]

Just did a quick look/see at Colt's site, and I see no mention of 10mm! Are they still making 'em? I went through every 1911/1991 style on the page and all I see are 45 and 38 super?
One poster stated they make 'em, but I can't find 'em on their website.

 

[Girodin]

My first suggestion for an anti-bear autoloader would be an FN Five-seveN, which also comes with three 10 or 20-round magazines. The 5.7x28mm round was designed to penetrate & tumble/fragment, and I have no doubt that one of those would drill through a bear's muscle & bone quite nicely.

I have shot rabbits with a five seven that took a follow up shot to finish off. I have never had such an experience with a .357 mag, .45 acp or the like. Even though you can actually get thirty round mags for the five seven it is not the pistol I would like to be holding when I have a bear after me. If a bear charged you will not get 20 rounds off at it unless it started from really far away. At the distances you are likely to have an incident with a bear that requires shooting a few rounds is all one is like to get off.

If we are talking black bears I would have picked the glock 20 were it not for your last post. Even at that I would suggest going and shooting one if you can. If you want an auto loader then I would go with the 10mm.

For a grizzly, (although I have never shot one and only rarely seen them in the wild so keep that in mind as I opine) I would rather have a big revolver like a .454 casull.

 

[AnaxImperator]

I have shot rabbits with a five seven that took a follow up shot to finish off. I have never had such an experience with a .357 mag, .45 acp or the like

I'd expect that for the 5.7mm to do it's job, it'd need considerably more than the thickness of a rabbit to tumble & fragment. That's why my 5.56mm didn't always do too well against the Muj; skinny little bastiches, occasionally the M855 Ball would zip right through them and make .22 holes in-&-out.... if we found them dropped.

A 40 grain round moving at under 2000fps, dancing around 300ft/lbs. At best the 5X7 could be called a 223lite. This round wouldn't meet the legal requirements to take deer in some states, let alone defend against bear.

Wow, I didn't expect the small/fast vs. big/slow argument to be brought against the Five-seveN, especially as the OP is looking for a semiauto; the FN was the first thing that came to mind, and I didn't get my ideas from a pawn-shop.
From what I've read on the 5.7, it's supposed to punch through body-armor, maintain it's integrity as it does so, then fragment & tumble as it does so. If it can (and does from what I've seen) go through Lvl. II/III soft body-armor and keep enough energy to destroy vital organs, then it's a viable anti-bear round.
From what I know of bears, there's some pretty thick meat & bone that a round has to get through before hitting anything vital. Maybe my understanding of ballistics is different, but FWIU a fat, slower moving round would be stopped short due to it quickly dumping its energy in that thick, tough muscle or bone. A heavy 10mm round should have enough punch to crack through a bear's skull, and likely the chest cavity, which is why I suggested it. Then there's the 20ct. cartridge capacity of the Five-seveN, which certainly doesn't hurt.

The 10mm, being among the lightest mentioned here is throwing out numbers like 180grs @ 1200fps thumping at 600+ft/lbs.

From Winchester;
Common Semi-Auto

10mm Auto - 175gr. SuperX HP
Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1290fps / 649

9x23mm Win - 124gr. JSP
Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1460fps / 587

.357 Sig - 125 gr. JHP
Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1350fps / 506

.38 Super - 130 gr. FMJ
Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1215fps / 426

Common Revolver

.357 Mag - 180 gr. Supreme Partition Gold
Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1180fps / 557

.45 WinMag - 260 gr. SuperX JHP
Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1200fps / 831

.44 RemMan - 250 gr. Supreme Partition Gold
Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 1230fps / 840

.460 S&W - 260 gr. Supreme Partition Gold
Velocity/Energy (ft/lbs): 2000fps / 2309
______________________________________________________

So.... If the OP decided to go with a revolver and money was no object, I'd say by all means, a S&W Model 460V would be more than adequate.... in fact, it'd likely turn a small black bear's guts inside-out .

But back to the autoloaders.... Let's say forget the FN Five-seveN ( ), and consider the 9x23Win. Would you guys here agree that given the preference for a semiauto, it'd be an adequate choice next to the 10mm? And as I mentioned before, it's possible to get a 9x23 semiauto w/ 8+1 rounds in reserve, for a cost of under $400. If someone has a seriously small bankroll and wants a semiauto that'll give said person a fighting chance against a bear, the 9x23 Tokarev IMHO is a good bet.

 

[Black Majik]

Since I see .45ACP and .45ACP +p mentioned, how would .45 Super do against black bear?

From what I understand, a HK USP .45 fullsize can shoot .45 Super without any harm as long as it's not a steady diet of .45 super.

 

[XD-40 Shooter]

Double Tap makes a 200 grain solid hard cast load in 40 S&W, 1050 fps from 4.5" barrel, that would probably get the job done.

 

[bestseller92]

I'd recommend the 10mm, but the only 10mm I'd trust is the Glock 20, and since you don't want a Glock....

Other than the 10mm, I'd pick either a .357 SIG with the heaviest bullet available, a hot loaded .45 ACP, or maybe even a .40 with hot 180 grain bullets. There was a guy in Alaska a year or two back who killed a big black bear ,who'd broken into his home, with a Glock 22 .40.

 

[basicblur]

and since you don't want a Glock....

Didn't say I wouldn't get a Glock...
I'd just feel really, really, really bad if I had to!

 

[jaholder1971]

Wow! Some of y'all have never hunted bear, have you?

Some of these might be great for people, but in this case I want penetration, penetration and penetration.

If you've gotta go autoloader, I'm thinking either a S&W 1076 or a GLock 20 with a Lone Wolf barrel and a magazine full of hardcast 200 grain SWC's loaded to max velocity.

Otherwise it's a Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk in .45 LC and 300 grain hardcast Keiths for me.

 

[Halo]

If you were to go with something you already have, I think the 357 SIG with FMJ would be your best option. Remember our bears here in the East aren't as huge as a kodiak grizzly so I don't think you need to go ultra ridiculous with a massive revolver. Unless you wanted one anyway.

Despite being smaller, some sources have suggested that the black bear is actually more dangerous than the brown bear because they will attack humans in a predatory mode, whereas brown bear attacks are usually territorial more so than predatory. Playing dead won't work with black bears, and running away from them will confirm you as prey to be pursued! I remember a couple of years ago a woman was killed and partially eaten by a black bear in Tennessee. That bear was small (under 200 lbs) and starving. Wildlife officers killed it with 9mm pistols, IIRC.

 

[skoro]

I'd think that a 1911 or a more modern "equivalent" like an M&P or XD loaded with 230gr hardballs would be the way to go.

 

[shamus]

88 magnum?

 

[slustan83]

From what I've read on the 5.7, it's supposed to punch through body-armor, maintain it's integrity as it does so, then fragment & tumble as it does so. If it can (and does from what I've seen) go through Lvl. II/III soft body-armor and keep enough energy to destroy vital organs, then it's a viable anti-bear round.

How could a round possibly maintain it's integrity through one medium(body armor) and then after it exits that medium, enter another(flesh,bone,organs,etc) then fragment?!?!?!

The 5.7 was designed as personal defense round for support troops who were deemed not to require a full size rifle or a carbine. using it against beers is absolutely asinine. You want all the energy from the larger caliber rounds to smash through bone, fat, and muscle to reach vital organs, I'm afraid the 5.7 isn't going to cut it. I have nothing against the round, but bear medicine it ain't, it's just BAD ADVICE.

Also, the AP round is .mil or LE only, so we are left with the civilian stuff only.

I'd expect that for the 5.7mm to do it's job, it'd need considerably more than the thickness of a rabbit to tumble & fragment. That's why my 5.56mm didn't always do too well against the Muj; skinny little bastiches, occasionally the M855 Ball would zip right through them and make .22 holes in-&-out.... if we found them dropped.

The 5.7 and 5.56 rounds are two totally different animals, but this is neither the time nor place for that discussion.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=278930

There's the link for brass fetchers test on the 5.7, not something I'd want against a bear.