Better grade dies

[MarshallDodge]

Sure if you are loading on a single stage.

But I was loading on progressive presses in full progressive mode with shellplates full using unsorted range brass by case length. With differing resizing efforts from various brand headstamp with differing brass alloy, case wall thickness, case lengths, etc., force applied to bullet seating die can vary factoring shellplate tilt/deflection to produce OAL variance.

Dillon 550 differs from other progressive presses like 650/750 in that shellplate does not capture the base of case rather pushes/slides cases on top of the platform which does not move. So differing resizing force on shellplate does not affect force on bullet seating die to act like a single stage when bullet is seated, producing more consistent OAL. Starting with Lee ABLP and continued on SPP and 2023 Pro 1K; while shellplates capture case base, "free-floating" shellplate design is utilized so during resizing or any force applied to the shellplate, shellplate simply drops down flat on solid carrier similar to 550 platform, which I attribute to producing .001" OAL variance that is hard to do with progressive press running in progressive mode with full shellplate using unsorted range brass by case length.

That is what I wanted to confirm, the OAL variance is not seating die related.

There are several precision rifle shooters- myself included, that load rifle ammo on a Dillon 550, and see results worthy of winning matches. I won't say it does as good a job as a single stage press with a quality die, or a Wilson arbor seater, but I'm not measuring groups down to .001"

 

[LiveLife]

How interesting. As loose as the shell plate seemed, I wondered how they maintained such consistency

Some people at Lee Precision have been busy addressing the shellplate/finished OAL consistency.

Actually I noticed it with Pro 1000 "floating shellplate" and ram under station #1 design that produced .002"-.003" OAL variance with mixed range brass and .001" OAL variance with pre-resized brass. SPP/2023 Pro 1K enhanced the "floating shellplate" contact on flat carrier with ram under station #1 design by making shellplate index "absolute" with pin through shellplate holes and auto correcting index - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...progressive-press.903681/page-3#post-12253438

 

[9mmepiphany]

That is what I wanted to confirm, the OAL variance is not seating die related.

There are several precision rifle shooters- myself included, that load rifle ammo on a Dillon 550, and see results worthy of winning matches. I won't say it does as good a job as a single stage press with a quality die, or a Wilson arbor seater, but I'm not measuring groups down to .001"

I believe I read that David Tubbs...arguably the best, and winningest, competitive rifleman in history...loaded his championship winning ammo on a Dillon 550

 

[9mmepiphany]

SPP/2023 Pro 1K enhanced the "floating shellplate" contact on flat carrier with ram under station #1 design by making shellplate index "absolute" with pin through shellplate holes and auto correcting index

Having to remove the ram to change the lower cover with the upgraded one on my SPP, It was very interesting to see how clever they had been in design

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Having to remove the ram to change the lower cover with the upgraded one on my SPP, It was very interesting to see how clever they had been in design

Which just goes to show, when considering components it’s important to consider every aspect of the interaction between the one component under consideration and the entire system into which it is connected.

 

[Barmcd]

Don’t waste time and effort discussing just get a Redding micrometer adjusting competition seater.

Works great, looks cool, less filling.

View attachment 1173855

I use Lee dies for my handguns and ARs - they're basically plinking rounds so the Lee dies provide adequate accuracy and consistency. I bought the Redding Master Hunter set of sizing and seating die for my 6.5 Creedmoor and I have seen consistently smaller groups with the Redding die. The Lee dies weren't bad, I was getting sub MOA groups with the Lee dies with an occasional group under 1/2". Now I'm not only getting sub MOA groups, many of them are under 3/4" and the 1/2" groups happen more often. Not only have the Redding dies improved the accuracy of my loads, they are easier to use since the micrometer provides a reference for making adjustments. I also bought a VLD seating stem so it fits the bullets I shoot better.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Matching the stem shape to the bullet ogive is something to consider.

Indeed. This thing of ours presumes basic knowledge to perform effectively and knowing whether your seating stem is appropriate for your bullet type is one of the basics.

For example, the below picture shows the standard stem that came with Lee and Redding 45acp dies.

The former uses the tip, the latter the ogive.

Both work fine but you do need to know why they may seat the same bullet differently.

(Yes, substandard photography. Left is Lee 9mm, center Lee 45acp, right Redding)

 

[CQB45ACP]

I use the Redding Comp seating die also and do like it but I had trouble with mine at first.

It has a feature where you can set the zero to your most common seating depth you use, then you can record the + or - micrometer number for any other bullet you want to try. This will give you a record to go by if you decide to record the settings for each type of bullet you use.
I keep track to a certain extent.

But, my OALs started growing while I was loading and it turned out an adjustment screw inside it was unscrewing while I was using it, changing my OAL a little on every so many rounds. Some blue locktite fixed it. I was disappointed that I had to take it apart to do this after just paying $103.00 for it, but it's been really good ever since.

You also have to watch the setting on it while your loading , the mic only has an o-ring for friction and my mic would unscrew when loading a lot at one time.

After using it for several years I do think their 9mm Comp Seating die is worth the extra money because their seating stem seems to fit all the 9mm bullets I use, and they are all seated straight.
After that the Micrometer is just a bonus.

Good to know! I’ll check mine for movement.

 

[irishlad]

Took a look at the RCBS Matchmaster. Pretty neat setup!

That's what I use. Love the window!!

 

[CQB45ACP]

As a couple have said, the ease of use sets the various dies apart in my view. Or at least the two brands I own (Lee & Redding).

I’m a single stage loader and haven’t a clue about progressive loading, but with all due respect, I’m not impressed with .001” variance

Now I can imagine such precision is incredibly difficult using one of those contraptions, but that’s not my schtick.

ZERO” variance in OAL is my goal and I can get it fairly simply and consistently with the Redding micrometer adjusting competition seater on my T-7.

I can also achieve it with the Lee but not consistently nor simply.

 

[NMexJim]

Another LNL user - pistol and 5.56 mainly although I have run .243 and .308 with good results. I do like this press. I’ve not had any serious problems.

Forester Co-Ax for rifle although the Redding Turret has whispered my name at times.

 

[Howa 9700]

Maybe somebody can help me out, but all the die instructions I have seen have you setup the sizing die by raising the ram, then screw in the sizing die until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram....then give die another 1/8th to 1/4 more.....takes out any slop. Dead stop. Then size your case. In theory, all cases will be sized the same.

But if you do that.....as far as head space and shoulder bump goes, you get what you get. Whatever was built into the die is what you get.......with no relation to the fired case in your chamber. Does not matter if it is a Lee die or most expensive match die going. You get what you get. Lee dies are supposed to be cut with generous room, such that it sizes cases to nearly max chamber to SAMMI specs......so as to minimize amount of sizing. In theory that could be a problem if a rifle has a chamber cut closer to minimum. Would not size a case enough to chamber. Come to think of it, a 308 I'm loading for has a short chamber. Need to setup Lee dies as per instructions and see how the two fit together.

So the solution to "dead stop" sizing is to "violate" the instructions, measure a fired case, set die to size 1 to 2 thousands under, then make sure case fits by closing a stripped bolt on the case to make sure bolt closes easily.......but just barely. So if you do that, you have NOT bottomed die out on the shell holder.....but simply stopped it somewhere in space above it? The stop is the linkage on the press?

So what does that change in relation to the sizing process......if any? Just stops it shorter than a dead stop would? But otherwise, accuracy is the same?

I ask as it seems a lot of die makers........perhaps even Lee.......will custom cut you a die sized you fired brass coming out of the actual rifle it is going to be used on. Sized the amount you specify. Seems if you are going to be really OCD about this, that would be the way to go?

 

[Howa 9700]

Two features on seating dies I like is a floating seating stem............and a micrometer adjustment dial......marked off in thousands. Takes the trial and error guesswork out changing seating depth.

I have two of these and they are both Forster.

 

[jmorris]

Standard seaters can do great, you just have to check them for results, as with all seaters.

I agree with this, they are all slightly different as are the projectiles they seat. What die someone uses as well as their results probably won’t be duplicated once you change a variable more than likely won’t once you change a number of them.

These come in handy if you want to quantify sizers, expanders and seaters.

I believe I read that David Tubbs...arguably the best, and winningest, competitive rifleman in history...loaded his championship winning ammo on a Dillon 550

Lots of them do. John Whidden even makes the tool heads David describes in his book. https://www.whiddengunworks.com/

The 550 is the only Dillon where the case doesn’t ride “in“ the shell plate. The case sits directly on the platform, on the 550 (left shell holder, SD, 657/750 and 4 digit Dillon presses are the others).

 

[Bill M.]

The Redding seating dies with the sliding sleeve work very well. I dumped my standard Lee seating dies. My bullets are straighter now. I also went to a M type expander. I am sure there are other brands that work well. I went with the Redding and do not regret it. I kept my Lee press and bought dies instead of a new press.

 

[thump_rrr]

Matching the stem shape to the bullet ogive is something to consider.

Can’t stress this enough especially with VLD type bullets. You don’t want the seater stem to be pushing down on the tip of the bullet.

 

[Barmcd]

Maybe somebody can help me out, but all the die instructions I have seen have you setup the sizing die by raising the ram, then screw in the sizing die until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram....then give die another 1/8th to 1/4 more.....takes out any slop. Dead stop. Then size your case. In theory, all cases will be sized the same.

But if you do that.....as far as head space and shoulder bump goes, you get what you get. Whatever was built into the die is what you get.......with no relation to the fired case in your chamber. Does not matter if it is a Lee die or most expensive match die going. You get what you get. Lee dies are supposed to be cut with generous room, such that it sizes cases to nearly max chamber to SAMMI specs......so as to minimize amount of sizing. In theory that could be a problem if a rifle has a chamber cut closer to minimum. Would not size a case enough to chamber. Come to think of it, a 308 I'm loading for has a short chamber. Need to setup Lee dies as per instructions and see how the two fit together.

So the solution to that is to "violate" the instructions, measure a fired case, set die to size 1 to 2 thousands under, then make sure case fits by closing a stripped bolt on the case to make sure bolt closes easily.......but just barely. So if you do that, you have NOT bottomed die out on the shell holder.....but simply stopped it somewhere in space above it? The stop is the linkage on the press?

So what does that change in relation to the sizing process......if any? Just stops it shorter than a dead stop would? But otherwise, accuracy is the same?

I ask as it seems a lot of die makers........perhaps even Lee.......will custom cut you a die sized you fired brass coming out of the actual rifle it is going to be used on. Sized the amount you specify. Seems if you are going to be really OCD about this, that would be the way to go?

That’s the way I determined COAL for my rifle calibers.

 

[mdi]

FWIW;I believe the press has more to do with seating consistency than a seating die. My experience was with my Co-Ax and Lee dies. I was reloading 308 Win., actually some once fired 7.62x51 LC brass, with my junky, crude old Lee dies, I had a new Hornady concentricity tester and averaged about .0005" runout. Seating OAL was about +/- .0015" with Nosler "Match" bullets.

 

[lightman]

Don’t waste time and effort discussing just get a Redding micrometer adjusting competition seater.

Works great, looks cool, less filling.

View attachment 1173855

I don't think anyone makes bad dies so theres really not a wrong choice. But if you truly want to upgrade dies Redding is not a bad suggestion. You can catch their competition seater on sale occasionally for around $100. Also give the Forrester seating die a look.

 

[JFrank]

I’ve used several seaters, microadjust top is the good part, Hornday with a microtop will seat rounds just as accurate as the top of the line Redding as long as the stem matches the bullet profile. I currently use Wilson in line seaters myself.
From my experience runout begins or ends with the sizing dies, neither will affect accuracy much but guys still like to have an idea if there’s a gross problem somewhere in the routine.

 

[NMexJim]

I can't speak to all die manufacturers, but here's Hornady showing how to set their FL sizer up using a comparator. He's bumping back .002.

TECH TIP | Setting up a Sizing Die using a Headspace Comparator

Hornady Sales Tech - Matt, walks through how to setup a sizing die, in combination with the Hornady Lock-N-Load Bushings & Sure-Loc Lock Rings, using a Heads...

youtu.be

I think die instructions are mainly written w/ the average reloader in mind. Moving into more advanced reloading techniques requires a higher level of understanding of cartridges and chambers. A lot of folks don't worry about these concepts.

I'm sure if I hunt hard enough I can find the same level for RCBS and Lee. Advanced bushing type dies don't need these adjustments.

 

[jmorris]

From my experience runout begins or ends with the sizing dies, neither will affect accuracy much but guys still like to have an idea if there’s a gross problem somewhere in the routine.

It certainly can begin with sizing, actually I most often see it with the expander being pulled back through but many probably don’t ever even test their dies with & without decapping pins/expanders installed.

 

[Axis II]

If you want to stay with rcbs the matchmaster seating dies are a definite upgrade. I have 308 and 223. I love dropping the bullet in the window and pulling the handle...

Do you have the matchmaster set with bushing die? I’m wondering when using a FL bushing die do i need to anneal, etc and can i use nickel cases?

 

[Axis II]

I have a Redding Competition Seating die. I also have Dillon and RCBS seating dies. The Redding Competition Seating die is a nicer die to work with. Well worth the extra cost.

With the bushing dies can i use nickel brass and do i need to anneal when using a bushing die?

 

[MarshallDodge]

With the bushing dies can i use nickel brass and do i need to anneal when using a bushing die?

You can use nickel brass, and do not need to anneal.