Better powder than Bullseye for 9mm and 45acp.

[PhillySoldier]

As I said a few posts above; Ive been ransom rest testing different powders w my 9mm. Ive tried the 4 listed powders so far and am planning on testing N320 next. Stopping to get it on my way home today. Besides those 5 powders; does anyone highly recommend anything else to try testing? Strictly looking for best accuracy at the moment, not price or being able to use in multiple calibers etc...

• Titegroup
• Power Pistol
• CFE
• WSF
• N320*

 

[Dwb1957]

I would love to see you try sport pistol ,I have read that Alliant made sport pistol to compete with n-320. I have been using sport pistol for a little over a year in 9mm and 45acp with good results. I have been keeping up with your post and I am enjoying your work thanks for sharing your results.

 

[PhillySoldier]

Unless im mistaken my understanding of sport pistol was that its meant for coated/casted bullets?

I just finished loading another 100 each of cfe and wsf. Last weekend's test of wsf was a bit high so i wanted tp test a lower range. The 2nd cfe test isnt really needed but since im leaning towards bulk loading it, i wanted to run a 2nd test just to confirm everything. I also picked up the n320 on my way home from work today. Will load that for this weekend too

 

[Dwb1957]

Allant's load data shows data for all types of bullets .

 

[Walkalong]

Sport Pistol is definitely aimed at the competition crowd.

 

[fxvr5]

Suggestions for testing:

Bullets. I recommend a good JHP bullet since they seem to be more accurate than round nose bullets. Bullets that the bullseye shooters use in the 9mm include Hornady 115 HAP, 115 XTP, 124 XTP, 125 HAP and Zero 115 and 125 grain conical JHP bullets. Another good bullet is RMR's 124 FMJ FP match bullet.

Powder recommendations from bullseye shooters include Power Pistol, N330, N340, Titegroup. I would add Accurate #7, True Blue and Silhouette to that list.

Many bullseye shooter claim you have to push the 9mm pretty fast to get good, consistent 50 yard accuracy.

 

[Walkalong]

Many bullseye shooter claim you have to push the 9mm pretty fast to get good, consistent 50 yard accuracy

How fast?

 

[Slamfire]

Many bullseye shooter claim you have to push the 9mm pretty fast to get good, consistent 50 yard accuracy.

That is what I understand. Someday I will be good enough to know it is true.

David Sams the Pistolsmith created my Bullseye Pistol 9mm and I later sent the thing to him for the UltraDot mount. When this was built he recommended Power Pistol and my memory is that velocities had to be above 1150 fps with a 115 grain bullet. My notes are:

David says old 115 Hornady bullet, 124-125 jacketed XTP OK, 5.0 grs N330, N340, less velocity provides less accuracy.

Basically the 9mm runs out of gas past 25 yards, so the thing has to be run hot to group well at 50 yards. For cost reasons I chronographed a 115 FMJ instead of the expensive 115 XTP, velocities were between 1150 and 1200 fps.

M92 FS Beretta Bar Sto Barrel

115 gr FMJ Hornady 0.355" 6.0 grs Power Pistol lot 3-16 WSP OAL 1.15"
15-Sep-16 T = 95 °F crimp 0.375"

Ave Vel = 1187
Std Dev = 16
ES = 58
Low = 1157
High = 1215
N = 9

v accurate.




I will say, with the 45 ACP, my 200 LSWC's won't group at all at 50 yards with my 25 yard load of 3.5 grains Bullseye. Those are going at 665 fps, but bump it up to 4.0 grains Bullseye with a 200 LSWC, and you are at the classic 50 yard load. The bullet is going between 720 to 741 fps depending on ambient temperatures.

 

[Dudedog]

Call it close to a 50% premium for VV powders. Yes it it works out to only about (round number) .50 a box or a penny a round more but my mind keeps telling me 50% more.
Going to play with some new powders in 9mm, but I currently like WSF (and I have used at least a dozen) Considering N330 even though it is more expensive, in the end compared to bullet cost powder cost in pistol rounds isn't that much....
Lots of people like Titegroup, I never cared for it much in 9mm, but some people like chocolate and some people prefer strawberry,no right/wrong answer other than do you like it, does it work well for you in your application.

I have been shooting a lot of the RMR 125gr MPR JHPs lately, they work well for me and are reasonably priced and of course there is the RMR discount for THR members.

Higher vels for 9mm Bullseye,
Wonder what the vel would be at 50 yards, thinking they might be getting close to subsonic? Maybe the issue with faster was keeping them supersonic all the way to the target?
I don't have data to prove it but my gut tells me it's better to stay sub or stay super all the way to the target. (and of course I may be out to lunch on this, I have been known to be out to lunch on a few other things in my life)
Edit: add chart


Quick check with one bullet starting at 1120 it goes subsonic before 50 yards. (call the speed of sound around 1080) So another say 80fps on top would probably keep it super to the target.

 

[fxvr5]

How fast?

1100+ fps.

 

[hdwhit]

Better powder than Bullseye for 9mm and 45acp.

Sport Pistol.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I looked through some of my notes using Bullseye in two handguns. These guns were a Colt 1911 and a G21. These loads were heavy. My velocity averaged with 200 grain SWC cast bullets averaged 850 fps with SD's over time running in the mid teens. The guns were not fouled up particularly. Accuracy was acceptable for a heavy load. For, me this was not a bad place to stop load development. YMMV When shooting in informal competition the loads were dropped significantly in the 1911. If it's not broke don't try to fix.

 

[PhillySoldier]

Ok ill give it a try. Thank you

 

[PhillySoldier]

There was supposed to be a quote on that

 

[PhillySoldier]

Suggestions for testing:

Bullets. I recommend a good JHP bullet since they seem to be more accurate than round nose bullets. Bullets that the bullseye shooters use in the 9mm include Hornady 115 HAP, 115 XTP, 124 XTP, 125 HAP and Zero 115 and 125 grain conical JHP bullets. Another good bullet is RMR's 124 FMJ FP match bullet.

Powder recommendations from bullseye shooters include Power Pistol, N330, N340, Titegroup. I would add Accurate #7, True Blue and Silhouette to that list.

Many bullseye shooter claim you have to push the 9mm pretty fast to get good, consistent 50 yard accuracy.

Im holding off on testing different projectiles yet. When I first got the ransom rest I did one test using different brands of factory ammo including different projectile types of Atlanta Arms. The JHP did do the best but it was sooo slight it didnt justify the price differences. I was however surprised to find, at least for my gun and barrel that the 115's did better than the heavier projectiles. Anyway Im testing so many different powders at the moment, I wanted to stick with just that one variable changing. I figure after that I can go try different projectiles within any given powder

Ive tried Power Pistol (best) and Titegroup (worst). How does N320, N330 and N340 differ/compare to each other? I picked up some N320 yesterday, Im not worried bout the prices but did give a laugh that the CFE was $25 and the N320 $45. Thats definitely a bit of a difference

And ive only been testing at the 25 yard line but yes my gun seems to like small and faster projectiles. And thats actually one of the reasons I want to re-test the CFE. Its been the only one of the powders so far where the best groups were with the lower charges.

 

[Walkalong]

That is what I understand. Someday I will be good enough to know it is true.

David Sams the Pistolsmith created my Bullseye Pistol 9mm and I later sent the thing to him for the UltraDot mount. When this was built he recommended Power Pistol and my memory is that velocities had to be above 1150 fps with a 115 grain bullet. My notes are:

David says old 115 Hornady bullet, 124-125 jacketed XTP OK, 5.0 grs N330, N340, less velocity provides less accuracy.

I do know that over the years it has been harder to find very accurate 9MM loads vs .45 ACP loads. Was always curious why. One can almost accidentally fall into an accurate .45 ACP load.

 

[Walkalong]

1100+ fps.

Thanks

 

[PhillySoldier]

I do know that over the years it has been harder to find very accurate 9MM loads vs .45 ACP loads. Was always curious why. One can almost accidentally fall into an accurate .45 ACP load.

Are you referring too factory loads? When I was ransom rest testing there was one brand I found that did as well as the match grade at a cheaper price. It was the Browning Performance Target 147g. They also had a 115g that did a lil worse but at an even cheaper price. Both of these Ive only shot on the rest, so I cant say how they feel when shooting

 

[Toprudder]

Many bullseye shooter claim you have to push the 9mm pretty fast to get good, consistent 50 yard accuracy.

Along those lines, I've pushed RMR 9mm 115 FMJ to 1500fps out of my carbine, and they are consistently 1.1" @ 50 yards. They drop through transonic around 75 yards, but group under 2.5" @ 100 yards.

 

[fxvr5]

Im holding off on testing different projectiles yet. When I first got the ransom rest I did one test using different brands of factory ammo including different projectile types of Atlanta Arms. The JHP did do the best but it was sooo slight it didnt justify the price differences. I was however surprised to find, at least for my gun and barrel that the 115's did better than the heavier projectiles. Anyway Im testing so many different powders at the moment, I wanted to stick with just that one variable changing. I figure after that I can go try different projectiles within any given powder

Ive tried Power Pistol (best) and Titegroup (worst). How does N320, N330 and N340 differ/compare to each other? I picked up some N320 yesterday, Im not worried bout the prices but did give a laugh that the CFE was $25 and the N320 $45. Thats definitely a bit of a difference

And ive only been testing at the 25 yard line but yes my gun seems to like small and faster projectiles. And thats actually one of the reasons I want to re-test the CFE. Its been the only one of the powders so far where the best groups were with the lower charges.

Quick questions -

1. How many rounds are you shooting with each load? And are they all shot into one group or divided into several groups?

2. What gun/barrel are you using?

3. What FMJ bullets are you using?

"How does N320, N330 and N340 differ/compare to each other? " Specifically? Different burn rates, N320 is the fastest, N340 is the slowest.

N330 is "legendary" in the 9mm, I hear. I've tried a little with limited testing thus far. Shoots okay but but further testing required.

I've had better groups with N340 than N320, so far, but have only tested in 10-, 15- or 20-shot groups (bullets are expensive!!). Further testing required here as well.

I use a 1911 with a Kart barrel, at 25 yards.

 

[PhillySoldier]

Quick questions -

1. How many rounds are you shooting with each load? And are they all shot into one group or divided into several groups?

2. What gun/barrel are you using?

3. What FMJ bullets are you using?

1) I do 20 rounds of each load - two ten round shot groups. All shots recorded on labradar. Usually 200 rounds total in each test though I will shoot them in 0.2g increments until the results narrow down whats working best and then I'll switch to 01.g increments

2) Im using a Sig P226 Legion 9mm with a Bar-sto match grade barrel 1:16 twist. Barrel is 4.5"

3) Hornady 115 FMJH's

 

[fxvr5]

1) I do 20 rounds of each load - two ten round shot groups. All shots recorded on labradar. Usually 200 rounds total in each test though I will shoot them in 0.2g increments until the results narrow down whats working best and then I'll switch to 01.g increments

2) Im using a Sig P226 Legion 9mm with a Bar-sto match grade barrel 1:16 twist. Barrel is 4.5"

3) Hornady 115 FMJH's

How much difference are you seeing in group size from one load to another?

I ask because even if you shoot five 10-shot groups with the same ammo, group size can vary by a factor of almost three. See this article where the author used 15-shot groups with a Ransom Rest: https://americanhandgunner.com/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/

Out of curiosity, what size are your groups?

 

[PhillySoldier]

Yes the velocity will affect the size of the groups (slightly) and part of what Im testing is to find which velocity per powder is getting the best groups. Most range in between the 1" to 1.6" range. The better groups from each powder have mainly been 1-1.2". Best grouping Ive gotten was 0.9" (Power Pistol). With titegroup the groupings jumped to the 2-3" range. And again ive found tighter groups within the lower range in CFE. So between CFE, Titegroup and the others - I wouldnt say group sizes are based on velocity alone.

 

[Walkalong]

Are you referring too factory loads?

No.

 

[Walkalong]

I use N320 to push a plated 124/5 Gr bullet at 1050ish FPS. Very clean brass, very clean gun, accurate enough for my purposes, fun to shoot a lot of.

N330 has always done well at near max/near max in 9MM for me. (Silhouette does as well and acts a lot like N330 in this application)

N340 is hard to beat (Of the three) for velocity in short 9MM barrels.

3N37 and 90/95 Gr JHPs shoots really well and is fun from pistols as it gets there so fast.

I am not a Bullseye shooter, not that good, but I am a fairly good shot and like to shoot steel at up to 108 yards (My farthest piece of steel) with my pistols.