Bill introduced to ban the FN FiveseveN & 5.7x28mm

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Dbl0Kevin - You have a good point, and to be fair they don't teach constitutional law in most schools. They should, though.

We all know the 3 branches of governmente, legislative, executive, judicial. America has seperation of powers, with checks and balances to increasing powers. Some places of convergence of powers, but not America. Now the President is the top executive, he is, as you say, still people. But he occupies the Office of the President, the Office has limitations. He accepts those limitations when he accepts the office. He can't declare the pizza shop competing with his brother's taco stand an 'enemy of the state', the office is designed to have limitations.

Now look at Democracy. Democracy is Demos (people) + Cracis (ruke); for rule of/by the people - no explicit instructions how. Thus the free media plays an ever larger role in the function of democracy, because people will act on what they assume to be right and/or in their best interest, and you can almost absolutely guarantee they will act against things against their interest.

For the media, when you bring the Chief of Police and a Congressman or a Senator and get them all together saying "People who have these pistols want to shoot cops." - well then you have incredible legitimacy behind their words. People WILL believe them, not the NRA wacko who tries to explain the intricacies and the fallacies of their statements.

The police had extensive influence in formulation of anti-terrorist legislation in dozens of countries around the world imemdiately after 9/11. It was a criss time, extraordinary measures had to be accepted. But they continue to hold and expand the power they have gained in the legislative process. Anyone with any poli-sci would have told us that giving a branch of government extra power is a bad thing because of this.

To reiterate, it might be OK for the President to sponsor legislation, publicise a cause, but NOT for executive servants. And when you use the Authority of the Department you are no longer just 'people'. When you abuse that authority you are Very Bad People.
 
Joe,

Why is it that when it comes to firearms laws people around here go on and on about how police and law enforcement officers are nothing but "civilians" just like everyone else and should have to abide by the same rules as the rest of the people, but now they're saying they are servants of the government and should not have the same rights as the rest of the people. Very convienient is it not? :barf:
 
Dbl0Kevin, if you work for the government as a citizen, you retain all rights when not working. When on the job, you are subject to all the restrictions that the government is.

When exactly it turned the other way, so that the government had rights and the civilians only had "privileges", I don't know.

Whether off duty or on, working for the government as a citizen should mean that you have to obey all the laws as a citizen. When on duty, however, you should also be subject to all restrictions applicable to government.

Hope this helps somewhat...


EDIT: Read the rest of your question. Here we go....

Again, when off duty, a government employee should be able to voice his/her opinion as any other citizen. When on duty, he/she should not be able to try to influence the law, being that the government shouldn't be allowed to give itself more power. Private organizations representing the government would be okay, but the government publicly speaking out about limiting the rights of the very citizens who gave it the power it holds? That doesn't fly well with me.
 
This would also ban .30Carbine revolvers, and possibly .17HMR revolvers too!

Not to mention the .500S&W, the .460 S&W, some really hot .357s, etc.

Lastly, if "body armor" is not furthur defined, it would ban all handguns. A thick shirt could be said to constitute 'body armor' of level 0.5 :rolleyes:
 
Quote:
What does the JHP 5.7mm do against armor?


I'm pretty sure it does the same thing any other pistol ammo does; make the recipient sore but usually doesn't penetrate. One of the big points in the argument against this foolishness is that the ammo for the 5.7 that can pierce body armor isn't legal.
Click to expand...

I was looking for a previous post about this but was unable to find it.

Anywho, There was a link posted to one of the AR-15 boards about a guy doing a range test with a Five-seveN, with the SS192 JHP, against a Level II (not IIA) Zylon vest. He strapped the best to a pair of phone books. All the rounds penetrated the front of vest and a number of them went through the phone books. When they hit, it would crush in the tip of the JHP, making it fail to expand, and then it would yaw and keep travelling.
 
Who should I contact in my state about the bill by email? And what do I say?
Some how, "There are tons of guns today that pierce armor," doesn't sound like a very good argument.
 
My Letter

Dear Congressman,

I am writing you in regards to H.R. 1136, Title: To protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by banning the Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS190 and SS192 cartridges, testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians.

Sponsor: Rep Engel, Eliot L [NY-17]

I see this as a frivilous law that will not aid in the protection of officers from people who seek to do them harm.
The FN Five-seveN pistol is a relatively rare and expensive firearm that has not seen proliferation in civilian hands, let alone those of criminals. The SS190 ammunition, which is used for military applications, has not been available to civilians. The SS192, which is sold to civilians, is also to purchase and expensive.

The weapons used against police officers are common and readily available, often their own sidearm. Let us use the judicial powers and laws already in place to prosecute criminals who perform acts of gun violence against our nation's peace officers, not not go after a firearm that is no threat.
 
Not the best, done on short notice, but if it is useful to anyone else in their quest for RKBA, please use it as a frame work for your own letter.
 
Full text of bill:


HR 1136 IH

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 1136

To protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by banning the Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS190 and SS192 cartridges, testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

March 7, 2005

Mr. ENGEL (for himself and Mr. KENNEDY of Rhode Island) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

A BILL

To protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by banning the Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS190 and SS192 cartridges, testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians.

(to me this means testing all handguns and ammunition.)


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Protect Law Enforcement Armor Act' or the `PLEA Act'.

SEC. 2. FINDINGS AND PURPOSE.

(a) Findings- Congress finds the following:

(1) Law enforcement is facing a new threat from handguns and accompanying ammunition, which are designed to penetrate police body armor, being marketed and sold to civilians.

(2) A Five-seveN Pistol and accompanying ammunition, manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium as the `5.7 x 28 mm System', has recently been recovered by law enforcement on the streets. The Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS192 cartridges are legally available for purchase by civilians under current law.

(3) The Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS192 cartridges are capable of penetrating level IIA armor. The manufacturer advertises that ammunition fired from the Five-seveN will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters and that the ammunition travels at 2100 feet per second.

(4) The Five-seveN Pistol, and similar handguns designed to use ammunition capable of penetrating body armor, pose a devastating threat to law enforcement.

(b) Purpose- The purpose of this Act is to protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by--

(1) testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor; and

(2) prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase by civilians of the Five-seveN Pistol, ammunition for such pistol, or any other handgun that uses ammunition found to be capable of penetrating body armor.

(S&W 500, AR-15 type pistols?)


SEC. 3. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.

(a) Expansion of Definition of Armor Piercing Ammunition- Section 921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in clause (i), by striking `or' at the end;

(2) in clause (ii), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; and'; and

(3) by adding at the end the following:

`(iii) a projectile that--

`(I) may be used in a handgun; and

`(II) the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor.'.

(b) Determination of Capability of Projectiles to Penetrate Body Armor- Section 926 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(d)(1) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Attorney General shall promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor Exemplar.

`(2) The standards promulgated pursuant to paragraph (1) shall take into account, among other factors, variations in performance that are related to the type of handgun used, the length of the barrel of the handgun, the amount and kind of powder used to propel the projectile, and the design of the projectile.

`(3) As used in paragraph (1), the term `Body Armor Exemplar' means body armor that the Attorney General determines meets minimum standards for the protection of law enforcement officers.'.

SEC. 4. ARMOR PIERCING HANDGUNS AND AMMUNITION.

(a) In General- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding after subsection (y):

`(z) Five-SeveN Pistol-

`(1) IN GENERAL- It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, import, market, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer, or receive--

`(A) the Fabrique Nationale Herstal Five-SeveN Pistol;

`(B) 5.7 x 28mm SS190 and SS192 cartridges; or

`(C) any other handgun that uses armor piercing ammunition.

`(2) EXCEPTIONS- This subsection shall not apply to--

`(A) any firearm or armor piercing ammunition manufactured for, and sold exclusively to, military, law enforcement, or intelligence agencies of the United States; and

`(B) the manufacture, possession, transfer, receipt, shipment, or delivery of a firearm or armor piercing ammunition by a licensed manufacturer, or any person acting pursuant to a contract with a licensed manufacturer, for the purpose of examining and testing such firearm or ammunition to determine whether paragraph (1) applies to such firearm.'.

(b) Penalties- Section 924(a)(1)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking `or (q)' and inserting `(q), or (z)'.


This is no different from last year's Kennedy proposed ammunition ban.
 
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"(3) The Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS192 cartridges are capable of penetrating level IIA armor. The manufacturer advertises that ammunition fired from the Five-seveN will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters and that the ammunition travels at 2100 feet per second."

What a piece of **** slight of hand. How the hell can they get away with this BULLS**T? The SS192 is not the bullet that penetrates the 48 layers of Kevlar and the CRISAT plate and stuff. They know this. They don't say the SS192 IS the bullet that penetrates the 48 layers of Kevlar. They just have 2 sentences, one after the other, that strongly imply that.

Bartholemew, great highlighting job. It's very clear that the preamble about the 5-7 is a smoke-screen, when you see how encompassing the objectives are in (b) Purpose.

"The purpose of this Act is to protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by--

(1) testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor; and

(2) prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase by civilians of the Five-seveN Pistol, ammunition for such pistol, or any other handgun that uses ammunition found to be capable of penetrating body armor."

They're banning the 5-7, bullets for it, and, well, while they're at it - In the interests of protecting the police - EVERY HANDGUN that could possibly fire any bullet that could penetrate Minimal body armour.

Anyone else notice that this bill is written against the law-abiding population of the entire United States? Why the hell do they need to protect the police from us? What is going on? Why are the police declaring themselves the enemies of all citizens? What the hell???!!!???
 
Given that there is a handgun made for just about every caliber of centerfire rifle ammo in existence, this would have the effect of banning every centerfire rifle cartridge ever made, just as soon as the "right" AG gets into office.

Get those letters written now.
 
>>>just as soon as the "right" AG gets into office<<<

It will never be enough until everyone is a criminal! When is it time for people to turn in their badges in the name of holding up the Constitution for which this country USED to stand for??? Enough is very soon going to be enough. Unfortunately, most likely in my lifetime....

:barf:
 
Police departments should not be endorsing any legislation. This practice should be prohibited.

Individual officers should endorse whatever legislation they want personally. Same for police unions, organizations etc
 
I know I'm slow...but the US Rep site required a four digit zip code...something I'm not familiar with. Going to the link and putting in my info...says my address is unkown. o_O
Never mind, got it through this time. Eee.
Working on my email now...don't like putting my address and name into websites, but it IS my congressman's site...so I guess it'll be alright.
But if I get kidnapped by MiBs I'm blaming you guys.
In my mini quest to prove that the pistol is not small, I discovered that it was just over 8 inches long. That seems a bit too huge...is this true?
And here's my letter:
Dear Congressman,

I am writing you in regards to H.R. 1136, Title: To protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by banning the Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS190 and SS192 cartridges, testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians.

Sponsor: Rep Engel, Eliot L [NY-17]

The Five SeveN pistol is a rare and expensive (Up to and over $1,000) weapon. The chief concern with it, the SS190 ball ammunition (which is not classified as armor piercing since it does not have a steel core), is not available to civilians at all. The ammunition that is available to civilians, the SS192, will not pierce standard police armor, and is also expensive. The guns criminals prefer are those that are cheap and small. The Five SeveN is neither, it is a full sized handgun measuring just over eight inches in length. If you were a criminal, and had to choose a pistol, would you choose a $1,000 dollar, eight inch, pistol that you would likely have to throw away after your first crime? This is why criminals like cheap guns. They commit the crime, toss it to remove evidence, and don't lose much. $1,000 is just too much for a one use weapon. Also, since the rounds they can buy don't pierce armor and have practically no stopping power (according to the US Army), being so small, the reason to buy the gun is nullified. No armor penetration, why buy it? Also, if a criminal wanted to pierce armor (which isn't very hard), he could buy a normal hunting rifle chambered for .223 or .308 Winchester. There's no such thing as a bullet proof vest, without a trauma plate, a strong knife thrust could pierce a vest.
Another issue I have with this bill, is that it will ban other handgun cartridges that are capable of penetrating armor. Are you aware that there are single shot hunting handguns chambered for the aforementioned .223 and .308 Winchester catridges? If I, and others I have associated with, are to understand this, then .223 and .308 Winchester, very popular rifle cartridges, will be banned as well.
This bill is simply another attempt to disarm me, the law abiding citizen, because some people want to break laws. This bill will take away an exotic firearm, and common hunting and self defense cartridges, when a criminal is more likely to shoot through armor with a .12 gauge slug anyway.
Instead of punishing me for what others may do, how about punishing those who do these things properly?
---------
How is it? Is it missing anything? Does it have too many words or too little information? Any spelling errors? Any technical errors? Something about it I don't like.
Critique is not only welcome, I beg for it. =X
 
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^^^^how does it not have stopping power when it makes as big as a whole as a 9mm with a hollow point tips? by twirling once in its target?
 
Arguements over the opinions of public servants versus everyone else on the matter are a sideshow. The issue is that of the individual right to keep and bear arms. It is either a right - or it is not. One or the other. That is the issue; and it transcends variations in small arms, or the type of ammunition.

--------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Medula Oblongata:

IF the Five-seveN and 50BMG cause the libs so much heartburn, then its the DUTY of every firearms owner to posess one of each.... I DO!!!
Click to expand...

You bet. Let's irritate and anger as many people as possible until they support the right of people to own firearms. It's our duty. We'll follow your lead.
 
IF the Five-seveN and 50BMG cause the libs so much heartburn, then its the DUTY of every firearms owner to posess one of each.... I DO!!!
Click to expand...

Agreed! -- not that I own either but I want both for just said reason.

-DR
 
Everyone's focused on the FiveseveN, but this bill looks to me like it would ban any sort of rifle caliber handgun (Thompson Center). Also what does the S&W .460 do to body armor? The .500 mag? Hell what does .44mag do to the type of body armor police use?


If someone were to make solid steel 9mm would that penetrate body armor? If so than your 9mm will be illegal as well as it is capable of firing AP rounds (regardless of whether or not you can actually get the ammo).



Folks, if this passes then we're screwed.
 
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