Bill of Sale????

[rscalzo]

That's total BS

I tend to agree. I get a BOS from any large purchase and it's for MY records. Why everyone is bring the government into it when they don't require it is odd. It's for the benefit of the seller and buyer and no one else. Simply good business practices.

 

[dogtown tom]

stickhauler I'm frankly amazed at so many responses to this thread where the person said they'd refuse to do a BOS for a firearm purchase or sale. I thought this was the High Road, where we tried to promote legal transfers of firearms...

Well.........do you know what IS legally required?

For a transaction between nonlicensees residing in the same state:
A Bill of Sale IS NOT required under any federal law.
Recording the buyer or sellers name, address, DL number, birthdate, height , weight or anything else IS NOT required under any federal law.

Exactly what part of the above is contrary to the ideals of The High Road?

Freedoms not exercised are freedoms lost. Continue to make up your own silly, meaningless "requirements" and eventually they'll become law.

If you list a WTS ad for a firearm and mention that the buyer will have to show ID and have his info recorded.....that's fine by me. Anyone that buys under those restrictions deserves what he gets.

But many sellers do not do that. Instead they come to an agreement to sell the gun, get nervous, and then at the FTF meet decide they need to write out a Bill of Sale to "protect" themselves. Requiring the buyer to provide his personal information is out of line at this point. Similiarly, buyers who decide at the last minute that they need a BOS can take a hike. That requirement should have been made when you offered to buy the gun.

It does puzzle me......do you guys not bother to archive your emails? I can pull up every FTF firearms transaction I've done since 1998 just by searching through my archived emails.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

A Bill of Sale IS NOT required under any federal law.

Great! I hope it stays that way! That has absolutely nothing to do with me wanting a receipt for my purchase be it gun or groceries.

 

[DCR]

What's all this talk about "good business" in a conversation about personal transactions???

If it's "business" to you, you should be an FFL; go get licensed, then print out bills of sale to your heart's content for each transaction, and leave gun sales to the professionals.

To those that require a BOS where your state law does not, well, I say the .gov has won by putting fear of its wrath into you. Those already indoctrinated to what the .gov wants to ultimately impose roll over easiest when it is proposed or imposed; they are the "sheeple" we so glibly refer to - and it appears they are among the forum members as well.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I say the .gov has won by putting fear of its wrath into you.

And you would be very wrong in that assumption. Someone buys from me and doesn't want a receipt/BOS good on them they wont get one. Sell to me you will give me a receipt. If that is too tough for you then we have no deal. GOVERNMENT has nothing to do with me wanting proof I paid for anything.

 

[Frank Ettin]

What's all this talk about "good business" in a conversation about personal transactions???...

When strangers exchange things of value it's business.

...To those that require a BOS where your state law does not, well, I say the .gov has won by putting fear of its wrath into you....

Balderdash.

More than a few of my colleagues live in nice houses in nice neighborhoods, drive nice cars, and generally lead materially comfortable lives, all financed in large part by the contributions of folks who should have known better, but who needed the services of a lawyer to get them out of trouble they could otherwise probably have avoided if they weren't disinclined to take some fairly simple precautions when conducting business.

If you're the seller of a gun, having documentation that on X date you sold this gun (identified by description and serial number) to a person who showed you specified forms of identification like a driver's license and concealed weapons permit will go a long way toward conclusively establishing that (1) you had no reason to believe that he was not a resident of your State; (2) you had no reason to believe that he was a prohibited person; and (3) that after that date you no longer possessed the gun. Even if the ID was forged, you've still established your due diligence. You've also gone a long way toward establishing that if the gun was later used in a crime, you no longer possessed it at the time.

And if you're buying a gun in a private transaction, similar documentation will help establish when and how you came into possession of it. That could be helpful if it turns out that it was previously reported stolen.

Of course, it's finally up to you on what terms and in what way you want to conduct your personal business. And in many cases, even if you're haphazard about it, things will work out. But then again, if you're both haphazard and unlucky there's always the chance that you'll wind up helping a colleague of mine buy another fancy new car. (I'm retired now, so it doesn't matter to me.)

 

[nalioth]

Balderdash.

I was under the impression there were no private transactions allowed in California.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I was under the impression there were no private transactions allowed in California.

That's correct. But I was writing in general terms.

A lot of lawyers make a lot of money sorting out matters for folks who could have been a little less haphazard in the way they conduct their personal business, no matter what that business might be. And of course, many States allow private firearms transactions.

 

[stickhauler]

Well.........do you know what IS legally required?

For a transaction between nonlicensees residing in the same state:
A Bill of Sale IS NOT required under any federal law.
Recording the buyer or sellers name, address, DL number, birthdate, height , weight or anything else IS NOT required under any federal law.

Exactly what part of the above is contrary to the ideals of The High Road?

What part of not giving the anti-gun crowd ammunition to get laws passed to ban private sales based on the comments your side of the argument posted here escape you. It sure seems to me like a majority here see no need to even ascertain the identity of the buyer in a private sale, and are against any buyer knowing who they are in a private sale. You really think that isn't exactly what the anti-gun side wants to prove to legislators when they demand a halt to any private sales?

Be as uncaring as you wish, and when they use the comments of you and others here vehemently defending your reluctance to even have proof of who bought your gun against ALL gun owners, we'll know who to thank (or blame)for that right being ended by law.

That is "High Road" to you? I'd prefer to present a view to the anti-gun crowd that we're responsible gun owners, who use whatever means necessary to insure that, if we choose to sell a gun in a private sale, it is sold to a person legally allowed to buy it. That is "High Road" to me, as I said, we're supposed to be the good guys.

 

[nalioth]

Well.........do you know what IS legally required?

For a transaction between nonlicensees residing in the same state:
A Bill of Sale IS NOT required under any federal law.
Recording the buyer or sellers name, address, DL number, birthdate, height , weight or anything else IS NOT required under any federal law.

Exactly what part of the above is contrary to the ideals of The High Road?

What part of not giving the anti-gun crowd ammunition to get laws passed to ban private sales based on the comments your side of the argument posted here escape you. It sure seems to me like a majority here see no need to even ascertain the identity of the buyer in a private sale, and are against any buyer knowing who they are in a private sale. You really think that isn't exactly what the anti-gun side wants to prove to legislators when they demand a halt to any private sales?

Be as uncaring as you wish, and when they use the comments of you and others here vehemently defending your reluctance to even have proof of who bought your gun against ALL gun owners, we'll know who to thank (or blame)for that right being ended by law.

That is "High Road" to you? I'd prefer to present a view to the anti-gun crowd that we're responsible gun owners, who use whatever means necessary to insure that, if we choose to sell a gun in a private sale, it is sold to a person legally allowed to buy it. That is "High Road" to me, as I said, we're supposed to be the good guys.

You can sell a gun to the most outstanding person you know, and if that person later develops a brain aneurysm and goes nutty with the gun, how would you have known that was going to happen prior to the sale?

You are preaching for strict "gun control".

 

[NavyLCDR]

I assure you, if you buy a firearm from me, you'll either show me your ID with enough time for me to note your name, address, and drivers license number, or CCW permit number if that's the ID you choose to show. Both your information, and mine will be listed on a copy of the bill of sale, along with the serial number of the firearm. I'd require this from you, that I don't know from Adam, or from my own brother or son.

I don't know YOU from Adam. You really think it is wise for me to give you, written down, my Driver's License number or CCW permit number?!? No way. Trust goes both ways, my friend.... you don't trust me in the sale of a firearm after I show you my DL and sign a Bill of Sale with only the info on it that you can get from the phone book about me (+info about the firearm) - I am certainly not going to trust you with my DL number!

And there is absolutely nothing low road or shady about doing a cash and carry deal with nothing other than a handshake in free states that allow it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...You are preaching for strict "gun control".

For my part, at least, this has nothing to do with gun control. Based on my experience, I favor formality in my private business transactions -- whatever they may involve.

I may be more informal about buying a $5.00 trinket at a garage sale. But I certainly would be more formal and diligent about the purchase or sale in a private transaction of anything of significant value -- a piece of art, some expensive jewelry, a fine watch, a gun, etc.

 

[stickhauler]

No, I am not favoring gun control, it's my personal choice to go further than the law requires in such sales. The rule is the seller can only legally transfer a firearm if they reasonably believe the buyer is legally allowed to buy a firearm. If you don't even check an ID, how did you exercise any effort to believe they are legally allowed to buy it? You didn't!

A bill of sale like what I described covers both the buyer and seller, from you making a claim if you suddenly changed your mind about the sale and told the cops the dude stole it from you, or from them claiming they paid you and you didn't deliver the said firearm to them. Because pretty much, you'll not sign a paper saying you got money for the gun if you didn't transfer it to the buyer. They aren't going to sign a paper saying they paid you if they didn't do so, or if they didn't get the gun described.

Needless to say, because of the attitude I've seen from you and many others here, I doubt seriously I'll ever sell a gun in a private transaction, as I want at least a BOS to cover my butt in any number of possible situations that could come up from selling, and then the gun being used in a criminal act.

There is no way on God's green earth the cops would come after you if a well respected member of the community went "postal" because of a health issue after you legally sold them a gun, that's a straw argument. There is a very high probability they would come after you if you sold a gun and didn't even make reasonable attempts to assure yourself they could legally buy a gun from you.

Just what danger is there is disclosing your driver's license number or CCW permit number? How would someone co-opt your identity using those numbers? I see no reasonable way that could be done. Sure, if they got your SSN or bank routing number, it's a breeze. The information that can be gleaned from the phone book should be sufficient in your view? My phone listing doesn't even show my address, just my name and phone number, and I'd wager I'm hardly in the minority on that here.

Still you're trying to miss the main point I was making. This forum can be viewed without being a member of it, and rest assured, those on the anti-gun side do monitor gun forums they can access without becoming members, and quite likely will even join a forum so they can monitor the comments of those there on gun issues. And they would love to see all sales limited to purchases either straight from licensed dealers, or transfers being done through a dealer.

Their main thrust these days appears to be ending private sales entirely, as it's their contention that gun owners are very happy to sell guns to criminals without question. If you really want to express the opinion that you don't want any checks of ID's for a sale to go through, and refuse to allow buyers to know your personal data, please do it in a private venue where they can't just access it for evidence proving exactly whet they're saying all gun owners do. Doing what you and others who insist on doing deals that way is playing to their hand, whether you choose to believe it or not.

 

[staggerlee213]

Which is more likely: Needing to file a home owners or renters insurance claim to replace a lost or damaged firearm and wishing you had a BOS to provide the insurance company

Or the fed marching around the country and collecting millions of BOSes from dusty filing cabinets for the purpose of compiling A LIST.

I'm going to go with A.

I buy something of value-- I want a receipt.

 

[NavyLCDR]

No, I am not favoring gun control, it's my personal choice to go further than the law requires in such sales. The rule is the seller can only legally transfer a firearm if they reasonably believe the buyer is legally allowed to buy a firearm. If you don't even check an ID, how did you exercise any effort to believe they are legally allowed to buy it? You didn't!

Good grief, stickhauler, you don't even know what the law is! In most states there is no "rule is the seller can only legally transfer a firearm if they reasonably believe the buyer is legally allowed to buy a firearm" and there isn't at the Federal level, either. :banghead:

 

[stickhauler]

Here is the data from the BATFE's FAQ:

Q: What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are “same-State” residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

Now, it says you can not knowingly sell a firearm to prohibited persons. How would it be possible to know whether the person was legally allowed to buy a gun if you didn't even check their ID?

I know the law as well as you do, even knew where to find it in the FAQ section.

And:

Or the fed marching around the country and collecting millions of BOSes from dusty filing cabinets for the purpose of compiling A LIST.

Yeah, sure, that's gonna happen. You see more hell raised than 50 Baptist preachers at a revival if they tried that, and we both know it.

Like I said, if you want to provide proof of what the anti-gun crowd keeps saying is how things go, keep posting in a public forum the proof they need to entice legislators to ban all private sales.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Now, it says you can not knowingly sell a firearm to prohibited persons. How would it be possible to know whether the person was legally allowed to buy a gun if you didn't even check their ID?

Looking at their ID card is NOT going to tell you if they are a prohibited person or not! By your reasoning, stickhauler, you are going to have to do a background check on the person!

A person who has been committed to a mental institution may have a driver's license.

A felon may have a driver's license.

I have a Wyoming driver's license, but I do not meet the definition of Wyoming resident in Title 27 of the CFR for firearms transactions so it would be illegal for me to buy a handgun in Wyoming or buy a long gun in Wyoming in a private sale.

A person convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence may have a driver's license.

A person addicted to an unlawful drug may have a driver's license.

How the heck is looking at a driver's license and writing down the number doing anything at all to even HINT that the buyer is NOT a prohibited person?!?

Like I said, if you want to provide proof of what the anti-gun crowd keeps saying is how things go, keep posting in a public forum the proof they need to entice legislators to ban all private sales.

My personal opinion, stickhauler, is that you've been associating a little too close with the anti-gun crowd and are starting to believe what they tell you.

Don't get me wrong, I've got absolutely nothing at all against a BOS. I have a BOS for every firearm I have bought/sold privately. But all it is is a RECEIPT. Nothing more. And all they have on them is information about the buyer/seller that a person can get out of the phone book.

 

[marv]

I'm in a retail business and give a reciept for nearly every transaction. I get one for nearly all my purchases. But, in all my F2F gun deals nothing has ever been asked, told, signed or written down by either party. My guns are my hobby and are funded by disposable income so I don't think it matters all that much.

 

[gym]

Do what your state law requires. Don't expect others to agree with your ideals or the way in which you run your life. No one cares what "you" do but "you". As long as you aren't violating the law, the idea of trying to convince others that your way is better or more efficient or morally correct or anything else is a waste of everyones time. And also for those of us that don't get it, the laws are different in most states. So please don't drag your moral, or business, sense of obligation along with you in here. Most of us have been buying trading, and selling firearms related stuff for decades. What makes anyone think that they can just come in and preach to adults as to what they should or should not do in matters such as this that are their own private affairs. This kind of topic gets beat to death with people who get offended that everyone dosen't do what they do. Let every man do what's best for him. That's why it's a free country.

 

[NavyLCDR]

+1000 gym! And the same for open vs. concealed carry too!

 

[22-rimfire]

A bill of sale is simply a record of a purchase or sale and the information placed on that bill of sale is subjective. Some want more information than other people. I try to keep fairly detailed records of my firearm sales and purchases, but some are simply... I bought or sold the firearm to a guy at a gunshow for cash on xxx date....

If you have a auto accident, do you record the person's name, address, DL#, insurance company, and policy number if it is available? I do. Are firearms so different? But I can honestly say I have never recorded anything more than a person's name and address on a firearm transaction and sometimes it is only a partial (say Joe Blow, Knoxville TN). I couldn't care less what their drivers license number is. They aren't big secrets as far as I'm concerned. They are recorded all the time at retail stores when you write a check.

 

[NavyLCDR]

They are recorded all the time at retail stores when you write a check.

First, CONGRATULATIONS! for 6,000 posts!

Second, in regards to the above statement..... OMG! Just how old are you exactly!

 

[stickhauler]

My personal opinion, stickhauler, is that you've been associating a little too close with the anti-gun crowd and are starting to believe what they tell you.

Nope, I don't hang with anti gun folks, and as such have never heard what they say. I am aware that they frequent gun web sites trying to find evidence of what they claim is normal practices by gun owners as it pertains to private sales. Their aim is to ban guns all together if possible, but are willing to take baby steps to achieve that goal. Their first goal is to ban private sales, and force legal gun owners to conduct sales through a licensed dealer. Supposedly legal owners making statements that they refuse to even ask for ID from buyers is exactly what they're looking for.

I said it once, I'll repeat it just once more. If you buy from me in a private sale, you'll comply with the simple fiats I expect from a buyer. If not, no deal. And I'd apply the same requirements to anyone who bought from me.

You want to claim I'm asking for a complete background check of a person, and that's hardly what I said. But claiming I propose that aids your argument that I'm wrong. No, getting personal information from a buyer can't assure me that they're legally allowed to have a gun, but at least I'm going to know who the hell I sold a gun to.

You claim that the info on most any BOS is exactly what you can get out of a phone book. Looked at phone books lately? A helluva lot of them do not even list addresses, mine doesn't. And guess what, they misspell my last name as well. That is yet another straw argument in this thread.

Bottom line is this, keep giving the anti-gun folks proof that legal gun owners don't give a damn about insuring they aren't selling guns to criminals. You'll provide them with the proof they need to get lawmakers to ban private sales. Yes, a BOS is simply a receipt when it all comes down to it, but at least you have some cover if the gun is used in a criminal act. Myself, I am selective about who I'd consider selling a gun to, and who I buy from. Your mileage may vary.

 

[DCR]

Fearmongering notwithstanding, this thread is running 99-0, which coincides with my experiences with BATF on gun traces and LE inquiries (albeit anecdotal) that, in states not requiring a BOS, nobody has gotten into any legal trouble for guns they've bought/sold without a BOS. I'm pitting my 35 years of gun trading against the fearmongers on this board, and still haven't read anything that demonstrably proves my way - no BOS (and I'm being generous including the "O") - is wrong.

 

[Gord]

So let's apply the same logic: what harm has demonstrably come from bills of sale?