Black Powder For Self Defense?

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In terms of BP self-defense firearms, I would concentrate on a revolver, preferable a Remington design. Why? BP rifles and shotguns generally hold only one shot, with the exception of double barreled models. In a self-defense situation, the defender wants more firepower than these longarms offer. This brings us to the revolver. It obviously holds more rounds, making it the preferred choice. Among revolver designs, the Remington, with its enclosed frame, offers the best choice.

Conscience forces me to say that even the most powerful BP revolver is inferior to modern handguns in terms of reliability. Therefore, I would recommend a modern firearm over their older predecessors if possible. Our other contributors have developed other points that you should consider as well. Good luck.


Timthinker
 
I've got a .44 BP revolver that I'd feel comfortable with in a fight if I was out of ammo for my carry weapon or what not. It's fairly reliable and I don't have the cap jamming issues with #10 caps. Also if I miss or shoot all six, the cloud of smoke will assist my get away.
 
It's not the first gun I would grab to fight with but I think there are some math majors here that really underestimate the pwnage a .44 cap and ball can deliver.
 
I have been looking at BP revolvers as a home defence weapon as it is the ONLY pistol I can legally own in the UK. Not perfect but beats all other options that I have. I figure six rounds from a BP revolver at the length of my stairs should be effective deterrent until help arrives.
 
Ballistically, the weakest bp revolver is as good if not BETTER then the ubiquitous .38 spcl snub nose revolver. If you want more power, get yourself a 44.
The Ruger Old Army, although expensive, can be loaded to levels that almost aproach the .41 magnum. That i read on these very boards. Who says that a bp revolver aproaching those power levels is unsufficient?
 
Sure it will work.
However a modern firearm would be far better.

One of the concerns with black powder is the heavy smoke produced. Pistol rounds are not reliable one shot stoppers, and multiple shots will often be necessary, especialy with misses.
If you look at police records more shots miss than hit in many firefights. A cloud of smoke in your sight picture hampers you a lot more than the person shooting back some yards away.

Imagine a shootout where there is so much smoke in the air that much of the skill has been replaced with luck for shot placement.

Now picture even more powder and hence more smoke out of a longarm. You are going to put yourself in a cloud indoors. So the round may be as effective short range, but you may not be shooting it.

I remember a very funny recent post by someone refering to gang members using BP in a drive bye, and then crashing down the road due to the resulting car full of smoke. It was hypothetical, but illustrates an overlooked problem with such firearms.

It also shows anyone exactly where the shot is coming from, not a huge concern in the average self defense situation, but such a big deal back in the day that snipers using airguns were seen as cowardly. Soldiers firing airguns (just as deadly as the muskets of the day, in fact more so because they could fire more shots faster) were often treated differently if captured for just that reason. They were seen as cowardly snipers because the lack of the a smoke cloud made them so much more effective that everyone despised them.
 
Bezoar, I am a huge Ruger Old Army (ROA) fan as some of my previous posts demonstrate. I believe that it is one of the finest BP revolvers made. That said, I must agree with Zoogster's reasoning. A modern firearm is more reliable than the old BP workhorses, ROA included. Now, the Rugers, Walkers and Dragoons are the most powerful caplock revolvers currently available today. If you decide to rely on a BP revolver for self-defense, any of those I have listed will meet your needs. Remember, caplock revolvers work, but modern firearms work more reliably.


Timthinker
 
According to the script Eastwood's character used a Starr .44.
Click to expand...
I believe Eastwood's character lost his gun in the saloon when Gene Hackman's character beat him nearly to death.

At any rate, for the climactic scene near the end of the movie he took and used the "Kid's" Schofield. So everyone was right--dontcha love it? Here's the scene where he takes the "Kid's" gun.

MUNNY
Lemmee see that Schofield, Kid.

THE KID
Wha... what f-for?

MUNNY
(sharply)
Lemmee see it.

THE KID
(giving it to him)
Sure. Sure, Bill.

Munny takes the pistol and begins to check it methodically,
inspecting the load first... and The Kid watches nervously,
shifting from foot to foot.

THE KID
You... you could keep it, Bill.
I ain't... gonna use it no more,
I ain't gonna kill nobody.

Munny, still checking the gun, glances up and meets The
Kid's uneasy gaze.

THE KID
I... I ain't like you, Bill.

Munny looks back at the pistol, checks the sights.

THE KID
You... gonna take... the money?

MUNNY
(to Little Sue)
You better get on back, Miss.

And Little Sue, still mounted, breathes an enormous silent
sigh of relief and turns her horse away hastily and Munny,
satisfied with the pistol, sticks it in his belt and walks
over to the horse and pulls his sawed-off shotgun out of the
bedroll.

THE KID
You could have it. All of it.

MUNNY
I thought you wanted to buy
spectacles an' fancy clothes an'
all.

THE KID
I'd rather be blind and ragged
than dead, I guess.

Munny looks at The Kid who is behaving bravely but is
trembling anyway, scared, and Munny's eyes are full of
brutally painful memories.

MUNNY
<expletive>, Kid. I ain't gonna kill
you. You're... the only friend
I got.​



Round Ball:

According to Elmer Keith and some of his contemporaries, round ball was a very effective "antipersonnel" round. There are a couple of quotes to that effect in Sixguns.
 
I think most people who've replied have missed the point that the original poster was looking for: he's worried about not being able to have a modern firearm. All this "modern handguns are better" is just preaching to the choir. I'd be willing to bet that everyone on these boards know that modern handguns are better than BP revolvers.

As has been stated, there's a lot of dead Civil War soldiers that would tell you that a BP revolver will do its job as long as the shooter does theirs. Heck, Wild Bill (along with many others) felt comfortable using .36's (C&B, not cartridge conversions) even though .44's were available. It's about shot placement.

Sure, smoke might be a problem indoors, but when you've got no other options, a brace of BP revolvers should do you just fine.
 
Here's the case that started it all.

On June 19th 2007 NY State Trooper Amanda Reif in the torso by Steven McCumber who was a sex offender while she was investigation a domestic disturbance. Since there were two pellets lodged in her shoulder the BP rifle probably wasn't even fired at her at all.

http://jonsabinpi.blogspot.com/2007/06/bullet-proof-vest-credited-with-saving.html

http://blog.syracuse.com/news/2007/06/trooper_shot_in_north_country.html

http://www.northcountrygazette.org/news/2007/06/19/trooper_shot/

The North Country Gazette

NYS Trooper Wounded, Kills Sex Offender
Posted on Tuesday, 19 of June , 2007 at 11:55 am
POTSDAM—New York State Trooper Amanda Reif, just returned to duty from a maternity leave, is in serious condition at the Fletcher Allen Medical Center in Burlington, Vt. after being shot Monday while responding to a domestic dispute on Route 56 in Potsdam, St. Lawrence County.

Reif, 29, a nearly five-year veteran of the State Police, was shot in the shoulder by suspect Steven McCumber, 45, as she exited her patrol car. She was able to return fire, killing McCumber.

Reif is stationed at the SP barracks in Canton, Troop B.
According to state police officials, Reif was shot while investigating a domestic dispute at McCumber’s home and was first on the scene. As soon as she arrived, McCumber allegedly shot her, ran back into the house and then back out into the driveway where police say he aggressively charged at other officers. Reif fired one shot, killing him. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

Police said that McCumber was a registered level 3 sex offender with recent convictions of attempted sexual abuse for incidents involving girls ages 10 and 12 and one for rape involving a 13-year old girl in the late 80s.

The State Troopers PBA issued a statement Tuesday, saying that Reif’s injuries are not life-threatening.
Click to expand...

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=6676816

It's says that she was shot with either a rifle or a regular shotgun (notice how they don't say much about the shotgun even though he was obviously didn't have much trouble getting one of those?). There are two pellets lodged in her shoulder, I doubt that she stood still long enough for him to reload a muzzle loading rifle so that he could shoot her twice. Since the BP rifle wasn't the weapon that he used what's the big deal?
 
Jedi, sometimes "preaching to the choir" is a responsible action, particularly if you are not 100% certain that everyone understands the point being made. We have many diverse members at THR, so I do not assume that everyone is familar with BP weapons and their practicality. My point is I would rather be safe than sorry. That said, your position is a vaild one.

I also agree with your position that BP weapons are as deadly today as they were in the past. Among the most powerful caplock revolvers are the ROAs, Walkers and Dragoons, although the Walkers have a bad reputation for dropping their loading levers after each shot. Hopefully everyone concerned with this topic, and every other one, will use our posts as a starting point for their inquiries. If we keep this in mind, then we truly take the high road.


Timthinker
 
Hi chipperi,

I just have this vision in my head of waiting for the smoke to clear out of the room to see if I hit em.
Click to expand...

By the same token the other guy would have to wait for the smoke to clear before he could respond with aimed fire. I actually think the real argument would be 'have you ever tried to get the sulfur smell out of furniture and drapes?'

Selena
 
For those that say the BP shotgun is a bad idea because of the limited number of shots, how about a C&B revolving cylinder rifle?

For those that keep mentioning reliability issues and clouds of smoke, how about a smokeless powder cap and ball revolver? Expensive as hell, but still an "antique".
 
Novus, when I first posted on this topic, I thought about a "revolver rifle" but did not mention it because so few of them exist compared to BP revolvers. Honestly, I have never seen one in my experiences, although I believe they are still manufactured. But you raise an interesting point.


Timthinker
 
The way I look at it, *having* a C&B revolver around is nothing but good... they tend to be attractive, they are extremely fun to shoot, they aren't that expensive (though they are a lot more expensive than they used to be :() and if you absolutely need something, anything, well at least you'll have that. Just leave it somewhere safe and if you really really need it you can use it.

The only issue is that they are high skill devices. If you don't practice with them quite a bit they will be unreliable, slow, and inaccurate. I think it takes maybe 100+ rounds fired just to get to the point where they are even likely to cock every time you pull the hammer back and go off every time you pull the trigger. I say cock because especially C&B revolvers tend to jam up if you don't pay attention to them. Force them and you can end up with a useless lump of metal until you spend some time with tools. Many more rounds are needed for true proficiency.

Outdoor public range... assigned the "upwind" slot... I shoot my modern guns for a while then pull out the huge stainless steel Old Army... five shots later I notice that basically everyone downwind of me has stopped shooting and is watching smoke blow past. They throw out a LOT of smoke. :D Oh, and sulfur smell in the drapes? Don't even think about trying to shoot even an NAA mini in an enclosed space unless you absolutely must. :barf:
 
five shots later I notice that basically everyone downwind of me has stopped shooting and is watching smoke blow past.
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Five shots? You know a ROA can be carried with all 6 chambers loaded? There's a notch cut between each nipple where you can rest the hammer safely. I have a stainless one that I bought a long time ago. (Do new ROA's have a billboard on the side like other Ruger's?)

If I lived someplace like DC, I would keep the ROA loaded. GCA-1968 says it's not a gun. (I'm not sure how much that matters in Chicago, NYC, and other places that ignore laws they don't like)
 
If I lived someplace like DC, I would keep the ROA loaded. GCA-1968 says it's not a gun. (I'm not sure how much that matters in Chicago, NYC, and other places that ignore laws they don't like)
Click to expand...
That would definitely not be a good idea.
While it is doubtful a C&B gun with a >12 inch barrel is prohibitted, and while it is questionable if a C&B pistol with a less than 12 inch barrel is legal to possess without being registered, it would be pointless because possession of the powder, ball and cap is illegal in DC unless one holds a valid firearms registration certificate for the exact caliber of the firearm that is registered.
In DC ossession of ammunition is illegal w/o a f. certificate and DC defines ammunition so as to include all components.
Technically speaking, those people that have a dummy round on their key chain are criminals as soon as they cross the DC line (with one exception).

7-2506.01. Persons permitted to possess
ammunition. No person shall possess ammunition
in the District of Columbia unless:
(1) He is a licensed dealer pursuant to subchapter
IV of this unit;
(2) He is an officer, agent, or employee of the
District of Columbia or the United States of
America, on duty and acting within the scope of
his duties when possessing such ammunition;
(3) He is the holder of the valid registration
certificate for a firearm of the same gauge or caliber
as the ammunition he possesses; except,
that no such person shall possess restricted pistol
bullets; or
(4) He holds an ammunition collector's certificate
on September 24, 1976.
Click to expand...
(2) "Ammunition" means cartridge cases,
shells, projectiles (including shot), primers, bullets
(including restricted pistol bullets), propellant
powder, or other devices or materials designed,
redesigned, or intended for use in a firearm or
destructive device.
Click to expand...
 
Muzzleloaders were defined in the firearms act of 1898 as class C fireworks.

This classification stood until the Klinton crime bill.

Now it is uncertain

MY liberals are trying to tell the uneducated public that there is no difference in a 50 cal roundball and a 50 cal BMG
 
Shame on you Never!;) I had convinced myself that .50 caliber muzzleloaders might be except from any potential legislation and you have caused me to worry again. Seriously, I am afraid you may be correct on this point. Legislators rely upon their staffs for information and may not know or care about such distinctions. Good grief, I am starting to worry myself.


Timthinker
 
Muzzleloaders were defined in the firearms act of 1898 as class C fireworks.

This classification stood until the Klinton crime bill.

Now it is uncertain

...
Click to expand...
What???? :confused:

There is no firearms act of 1898.
I don't think they even had letter classifications of explosives in 1898.
The firearms are not fireworks unless you are talking about the moment they are loaded, but even then I doubt there is anything whatsoever that defines them as "fireworks". So the sale of them does not come under any definition of fireworks I can assure you.

The federal classification of muzzloading firearms has not changed under Clinton. If anything the definition became much looser under Clinton's administration to include modern inlines and smokeless powder muzzloaders like the Savage 10ML II.
 
I think blackpowder cap and ball will get the job done and I think John Wesley Hardin, Buckskin Frank Leslie, and Will Bill James Butler Hickok would agree with me.
 
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