Black Powder Subs-

[raa-7]

Does anyone know what they are putting in the black powder substitutes,besides the three major parts/compounds that we know of ? I was just thinking,,what do they put in them to make them more powerful than the competition.The Tripple 7,made by Hodgdon is supposed to have more power than other brands of bp substitutes.So what are they putting into the mix that gives it more Power/BanG/oompH ?Or,, what do you think they mix into it? ?Any Ideas ? thanks for any info

 

[mykeal]

It's <proprietary>.

 

[[email protected]]

I know they mix some BS in.

 

[YumaKid]

Yes, it is proprietary - makes (dollars and) sense to keep it that way.

Pardon the obvious pun. But while the folks at Hodgdon are undoubtedly nice guys and shooters themselves,they buy food and pay their bills with funds that they receive when we buy their powder. And the Good Lord knows that if the "recipe" for Pyrodex or Triple Seven or any other product hit the Internet; somebody will try to copy it, goof it up, and suddenly there will be one less powder manufacturer out there, along with some very happily richer ambulance-chasing lawyers.

All my disclaimers having been thrown out there; I seem to remember reading somewhere that 777 was "sugar-based".
Hey, it was posted on the Internet, so it MUST be true, right?

 

[woodnbow]

^^^ what yuma kid says... It's good powder IMO. I'm less concerned about what's in it, as long as it works well I'm happy to support the guys who provide it.

 

[raa-7]

I heard the same about the tripple 7 being sugar bassed too.I know that sugar based powders are sometimes used for fireworks or those model rocket engines.. I'm just curious to know what they put in to give that extra bang,but if everyone knew about it,I guess we'd be makin it too Could it be Potassium Perchlorate ? I'm just guessing.

 

[MCgunner]

^^^ what yuma kid says... It's good powder IMO. I'm less concerned about what's in it, as long as it works well I'm happy to support the guys who provide it.

+1 The one thing I wish I could easily get BP for, though, is ignition reliability. Pyrodex, 777, the subs all are harder to ignite and that keeps me from getting a flinter. I know, I know, I can order 200,000 lbs of it and the hazmat fee will be reasonable. When I get my hardened storage bunker built, I might consider that. Meanwhile, 777 has a power advantage and most of it works in my caplocks. I tried Blachhorn 209 in my inline, didn't like it, prefer 777.

 

[EljaySL]

I like 777 a lot in the revolvers, but less even in other percussion guns. I think I've spent more on upgrading nipples and buying every cap on the market to deal with some fussy percussion guns than I would have spent on the hazmat for one big BP order.

And do try a flintlock. They're fun and the one shot pistols don't use all that much BP.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

It's no secret.

Hodgdon has the MSDS sheets for all their powder posted right on their website.

http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

They don't tell you the ratios, but they do tell you exactly what is in them.

When Pyrodex was originally formulated, it was made so that it delivered the same amount of energy per volume as real Black Powder does.

For some reason, Triple Seven is formulated to be about 15% more powerful than real Black Powder. This is also posted right on their website. A few years ago I head that they were going to come up with a new formula that delivered the same energy as Black Powder, but I have not heard any more about that.

 

[raa-7]

There are other ingredients besides the Charcoal,Potassium nitrate,Potassium perchlorate,Sulfer and the graphite.They won't tell you "every", component they put in the powder,but they say the information can be disclosed per 29cfr 1910 . 1200 (i) whatever that means...

 

[Doak]

Many years ago, in my model rocket phase, I made what's known as "Carmel Candy Rocket Fuel".

60% Potassium Nitrate, 40% Powdered Sugar, by weight. Nothing more. You can blend it dry, or, as the name implies, melt it in the oven, below it's flashpoint, into a carmel "candy" w/the consistency of hot tar. Then pour it into a mould. After it solidifies, it can be inserted into a rocket motor.

I only ever mixed it in it's dry form, & tamped into small paper tube rockets. If the rocket nozzle was too small in diameter, the rockets would explode. Later, I learned that this mixture was also known as "White Gun Powder". It needs to be confined to explode, similar to smokeless.

It does leave behind a residue more difficult to clean up than BP.

 

[EljaySL]

re: 29cfr 1910 . 1200 (i)

CFR is code of federal register or something like that. It's where regulations are published. That section is OSHA stuff re: hazardous materials.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=10099

1920.1200(i) covers trade secrets. Basically what they're telling you is that if you really need to know they'll tell you a little more but no more than OSHA absolutely requires since they consider the exact formula to be secret. There's a whole system where you can tell your concerns to a doctor and they'll tell the doctor what's in it and the doctor will go back to you and disclose if your concern is valid or not but no details.

 

[raa-7]

AH, I knew that code would have to give up some information and I suspected it would also be protected.They are covered so well by all of that ! I was just so curious to what went in it,but I'll bet there are people out there constantly experimenting with different ingredients to try to come up with better.That would be a risky venture. Thanks for that web site,it's pretty interesting.I would not have known where to look for that code !

 

[mustanger]

This doesn't really answer your question, but, burn rate would influence preasure peaks. ie. FFF bp compared to FF bp. Just a thought.

 

[EljaySL]

They are covered so well by all of that !

That's the way it works. Some bureaucrats get tasked with regulating something and they seek input from the affected companies and there's various rounds of public comment and eventually they always seem to end up with something that the existing large players can deal with but it's a nightmare for any new, small players to enter the space. Big companies can afford full time departments to deal with this stuff. But I digress.

 

[raa-7]

Yes, and it sure looks very effective.Thanks for the info and that govt web site,now I have some direction on where to look when I see those confusing codes like that.I'll bet that they discourage alot of people from digging further,because I didnt know where to find things like that,all I could think when I saw it was, it must be in some sort of code/law book.

 

[Lunie]

CFR = "Code of Federal Regulations" = The colossal collection of regulations created to implement the laws and authority granted by the USC to our massive bureaucracy.

USC = "United States Code" = Collection of the permanent laws of the United States. "Massive" is an understatement.

 

[EljaySL]

Thank you. I was combining acronyms in my head - the Federal Register is where rules and proposed rules get published.

 

[ThorinNNY]

I prefer to use Goex black powder.I tried Pyrodex, and let`s just say I`d shoot with it if real black powder was no longer available. I`d be very unhappy that I could no longer get Goex, but still slightly satisfied I had something (BP sub) that -frequently goes BOOM and often pushes prbs and minie balls out of my smokepoles!

 

[raa-7]

Oh yeah,without a doubt ! If I couldnt get the real bp I,d use the Pyrodex,and I use it anyway just to have a variety of powder.The walmart I go to has the "P" and the "RS" and I got some of it.It sends the lead down range just as well.Some people say it's garbage,and I could never understand that.The only thing I can think of is that its a little harder to clean up.

 

[YumaKid]

I'm jealous of all you guys who can pick (at the very least) a sub at Wally World - they've got NOTHING for BP in my town. It's even "mighty slim pickins" at the one LGS that carries anything BP. If you want something more 'exotic' than Pyrodex P or RS, Remington #11 or CCI #10 caps; you are SOL.

When friends/family are flying into town is when I make my powder and caps runs to Cabelas in Phoenix; it's the only saving grace about having to pay $200 to fly into Yuma - I can drive up to "the big town" and go shopping for "necessities" for less than the cost of the flight.

Now if I could just figure out what phase of the moon is occuring when Cabelas actually has Remington #10's in stock; and get people to arrive during THAT period......

 

[MCgunner]

CFR = "Code of Federal Regulations" = The colossal collection of regulations created to implement the laws and authority granted by the USC to our massive bureaucracy.

USC = "United States Code" = Collection of the permanent laws of the United States. "Massive" is an understatement.

Reminds me of this bit of wisdom....

Pythagorean theorem: 24 words. The Lord's prayer: 66 words. Archimedes' Principle: 67 words. The Ten Commandments: 179 words. Lincoln's Gettysburg Address: 286 words. The entire Declaration of Independence: 1,300 words. Current US Government regulations on the retail sale of cabbage: 26,911 words.

 

[raa-7]

Now if I could just figure out what phase of the moon is occuring when Cabelas actually has Remington #10's in stock; and get people to arrive during THAT period......[/QUOTE] I like how you put that,with the moon phase n all I can only get the Bp at W-mart in the fall, so when they do have it I'll buy a few pounds of it.This time around they only put out the RS,which I already had plenty of. And actually,,, the planets have to be aligned just right in order to be able to get the Pyrodex "P" from them But I would have to otherwise order it and pay the hazmat fee,which nobody likes paying,or take a long drive and spend it on gas.

 

[MCgunner]

Walmart and BP? Right. Of course this is goose hunting country and the only ammo our local WM has is 10 gauge 3.5" magnum steel T shot, three shelves full of it, and not a .22 round in the state. :rolleyes; They don't really have to stock BP to make me happy, just get my Federal 550 round bulk packs back!

Do they store it out back there in a bunker or break the law? Just wondering. It's like pulling teeth at most walmarts to get service at the sporting goods counter and when you do get help, they're clueless. I can imagine asking one of 'em to go out back for 4 lbs of FFFG. I doubt most of 'em could spell FFFG.

 

[YumaKid]

McGunner: I'm with you. I can remember in the not-too-distant past (one U.S. President ago) when the best deal going in Yuma was the 1325-round pack of Federal .22LR's for some stupid low price like $27.
As of two days ago, you could get any kind of ammo you wanted, so long as it was Winchester .270 or 7mm Mag! The rest of the shelves had varying layers of dust on them, depending upon how long ago the stock had run out.

I about FREAKED when I went into a Wally World somewhere in SW Iowa with my son-in-law this past August.... MANY BP inlines, some with either laminated or Realtree-printed 'glass stocks and hundreds of saboted rounds from Hornaday and the like. Unfortunately, what we were looking for was some SD/HD rounds in .45ACP for the XDM he had just gotten in a trade; and the same in .357 for the S&W 66 we had found dirty and unloved at a local gunshow for his wife/my daughter's birthday - almost "exactly like Mom's", which was her request.
But there was 'No Joy in Wal-Mart' that day; unless fully jacketed ball could be considered SD/HD in either caliber, because that's all they had. And that was BEFORE the Elections! Fortunately, digging through the stockroom at the hardware store where my daughter works in another Iowa town netted us the HOLY GRAIL..... Hydra-Shok's in both calibers; and for only $35 per box (with her employee discount).

At the hardware store, the Pyro (and GOEX!!!) are stored in a big-azz safe from some no-longer-existant bank. Wal-Mart? I have no clue, and will probably never know; since none of the FOUR stores within 15 miles of my house would offer you anything but a 1000 yard stare if you asked for powder.