Black Talons for carry?

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led4evr1978

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Hey guys. I'm new here. Hope I don't sound stupid to you all. Here's my question. I'm fairly new to concealed carry.(Got my liscense 6 months ago.) I have a Colt Defender Plus that I carry. I found some Winchester Black Talons on gunbroker and bought a box. 230gr .45 ACP. Anyone think I'm asking for trouble carrying these rounds? Either a reliability problem, stopping power problem, or problems with prosecutors using them against me if I (god forbid) ever have to use them? Any input from anyone with a thought on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.


Semper Fi
 
In regards to reliability, that's something that you're going to have to determine with your particular pistol. In general, there shouldn't be a problem, but sometimes individual firearms can be a bit finicky when it comes to what ammo they'll function with.

Stopping power - Well, getting shot with any type of hollow-point isn't exactly something to sneeze at, and the .45ACP round packs a decent punch regardless. So, even if the bullet fails to expand, I'd think you're in pretty good shape in regards to "stopping power".

As for legality - I wouldn't worry. There was a time when Black Talon and similar ammo was a no-no in the media, but I've only ever heard of one court case where hollow-point ammo of any type had anything to do with a court case - in the Harold Fish case. And even then, it's questionable whether the ammo actually hurt him or not.

In short, carry what you're comfortable with, and are sure functions in your gun.

And welcome to THR! :D
 
If you ever have to use them, you are likely to have problems from the prosecutors. Due to the emotion created by the name. If I'm not mistaken, that's why they changed the name. You can get the EXACT same ammo under a different name now. I think they are called ranger sxt, or ranger something.
 
While it is true that you might (and I mean might) have a prosecutor who wants to bring up the old controversy about them, as long as it's a good shoot, it won't matter much. Especially since, as ThrottleJockey said, they're still marketed - just under a different name.

It's been proven that Black Talons are no more "deadly" than any other brand of hollow-point, so there's really not much that a prosecutor could say if he or she wanted to use it against you.
 
Thanks for the super quick responses guys. I do understand the response of carrying what I'm comfortable with. I guess I need to get over the look of the round, and focus on testing statistics. That's a no brainer I guess. And since they discountiuned manufacturing the "Black Talons" in 92 I think it was, any reason properly stored 27 year old ammo would have a greater chance of failing to function than something new? I have looked into the winchester rangers, and have seen them refered to as new black talons. Heck of a lot cheaper also. In your opinions...Is lighter and faster better than heavier and slower rounds in a self defense gun? Thanks again fellas.


Semper Fi
 
Just hold onto them, if you want the same bullet design ten or fifteen years more up to date and cheaper just get yourself some Winchester Ranger-T series ammo. Won't get in any trouble for it legally, it isn't banned or illegal or anything, Winchester just pulled it from commercial sales and made it an LE-only offering. Really though, hold onto them, in five or ten years there is no telling how much you could sell them off for, or if it were me, just for collectability.




Is lighter and faster better than heavier and slower rounds in a self defense gun? Thanks again fellas.

Better designed is what you want to look for these days. For instance, the Federal HST is what I like for carry, and with HST the heavier bullet weights tend to penetrate about a half inch or so more and expand a little bit better as well. No performance lost, gained in fact, and heavyweights tend to stay within design parameters better from shorter barrels than fast light bullets. All a plus in my book.
 
Harold Fish was railed on by the prosecutor for carrying a 10mm Auto with JHP, not Black Talons I don't think. His lawyer was about as useful as an accordion on a day of hunting, which is what really screwed him more than anything.
 
guys have been arguing about light and fast vs slow but heavy for years, and so far no one has come away with a clear winner.

In truth, most go with medium fast and medium heavy.


Now, onto your Black Talons.

The medai hype caused Winchester to rename it Ranger XTS. This means you paid a premium for a name printed on a box of cardboard.

ANY ammo that is going to be used for self defense should prove it works flawlessly in your firearm before it is trusted. This means at minimum 100 rounds fired without a hiccupp. I suspect your black talons have not proven themselves in this manner yet.

Second, while ammo can definately last a long time, it's enemy is moisture. If the black talons were sealed in surplus army ammo can, yes they are probably still good. If they were sitting on the basement shelf somewhere, they may not be. Or maybe only 1 out of the 50 has gone bad.

Carried next to the sweaty human body? Most guys cycle out their carry ammo every 6 months.


Now, onto Black Talon ammo itself. It is all media hype. Truth be told, this ammo was originally designed for deep penetration like you'd want vs a bear or wild pig. Most people aren't as deep as bear, so depending on what loading you have, it may or may not be good defensive ammo. Anyways, Wincheter chose to play up the black talon's "Talon" and talked about some BS buzzsaw like nonsenes, and jagged edge nonsense. Of course the gun ignorant media caught on and went wild. They started attributing all sorts of other BS legends like 'these can saw their way through bullet proof vests!' (in reality hollowpoints including the black talon penetrate less well than Full Metal Jacket rounds)

So, as mentioned before, Winchester eventually side-stepped this issue by renaming them Winchester Ranger XTS. Same bullet, different coating color so it was no longer black.

Well, it turns out that XTS worked best for deeper penetration than most self defense ammo needed, so Winchester tweaked the design to get Winchester Ranger T...but now almost 30 years later pretty much any and every decent ammo maker has come up with hollowpoint designs that are superior to the old Black Talon, no matter what color or name it is.

in short

the seller took advantage of your ignorance

Don't compound the mistake. Sell the ammo as a curio, or store it as a reminder to do a bit more research.

Then go out and by any namebrand premium hollowpoint. But a lot. Practice with some, store the rest in a solidly sealing ammo can. Every 6 months go to the range, fire off the carry ammo, and replace it with fresh stuff. Go to the range ever month and practice shooting with the cheapest ammo you can find. Double points if oyu bring your 22LR handgun along and practice mostly with that.

So what ammo to get? I don't know. I price shopped, picked up a load of premiums that were on sale. But here are some names to look for Supreme T, Silvertip, Hydrashock, Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Ranger, Hornaday XTP,.

If you had to pin me down to 1 recomnedation, I'd say 200 grain +P gold dot
 
I would certainly carry a HP in 45 but not black talons, they are worth to much, you should what previous owner did, sell them on gunbroker and buy Ranger SXTs, Ranger Talons, or whatever they changed the name to.
 
Really great info akodo, and very much appreciated. Thank you. I have definitely felt a little uneasy not having fired a hundered or two of these rounds through my Colt and depending on them to protect my familys lives. I have shot 20 of them, but understand that's not an adequate amount. Have never considered cycling ammo every six months. Feel much more enlightened now. I appreciate you guy's opinions and experience, and will be changing the way I do things. Once again, many thanks and much respect to you fellow patriots.

Semper Fi
 
Shrug - if Remington Golden Sabre's (which I carry in my G19) don't inspire much fuss, why worry about Black Talons? Particularly when the name is such in the past (in our attention deficit society) that non-gun enthusiasts would have to do a Wikepedia or Google search to find out what all the fuss is about.

In fact, depending on calibre, the only reason you wouldn't / shouldn't carry them is there are equally effective and less expensive SD rounds out there.
 
Ones in my G 23 are plain Winchester JHP from Walmart. It shoots fine so Im sticking with it. A box is $ 20 .
 
NG VI - "Really though, hold onto them, in five or ten years there is no telling how much you could sell them off for, or if it were me, just for collectability."

I agree. Quite a few years ago, before all the hysterical commotion by the left wing lace panties zombie media, I shot .45 ACP Black Talons regularly. Worked fine in my Colt's Govt. Models.

All at once, Winchester pulled the name and the Black Talons became collectible. I still had four full boxes (20 rounds per box) so put them away.

Last year at the Boise Gun Show, I had a table and put the four boxes on the table. Sold the four boxes for $55.00 each. I think that when I bought those Black Talon .45s, I paid about $12.00 per box.

Don't know what you paid but imagine if you hold on to them, some day a collector will give you a nice profit on your purchase.

Plenty of good, effective .45 ACP ammo out there. I prefer Fed. 230 grains Hydra-Shock in my carry Colt's L.W. Commander. Others prefer other brands. They'll all do a good job so long as you shoot accurately. :)

FWIW.

L.W.
 
Any good grade of HP will serve the defensive function very nicely. Make sure it shoots and feeds consistently in your gun. I load my own - Hornady XTP that costs around 24 bucks a hundred. Cheap enough to practice with and still deliver serious kick butt for defense.
 
my brother inlaw has his glock 22 loaded with them at all times but he lives in a small county knows the da sherrif and town cop so he doesnt worry
 
PAINTBALLDUDE - "my brother inlaw has his glock 22 loaded with them at all times but he lives in a small county knows the da sherrif and town cop so he doesnt worry"


The cartridges won't make a bit of difference, so long as the shoot is a "good shoot." If his shooting of a person is a "bad shoot," or unjustified, it won't matter if he knows God himself. A "bad shoot" will mean some very, very serious legal problems for him.

Most important thing is to always make sure the shooting is justified.

L.W.
 
I carry the RA45T rounds and I'm not really worried about what a lawyer will say.

If I have to use them, I'd prefer that my family and I are alive to face a lawyer.

Why do I carry them? Well, simply put, it has nothing to do with the "evil" factor that some have associated with them.

It has a great deal to do with what I read about them versus other rounds on this site:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo.htm

And this page on the same site: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm


Since my carry is a P220, this was an extremely helpful site.

It was a bit of a tough decision actually; I was torn between the Winchester RA45T and the Federal HydraShok, but I opted for the Winchester because of the uniform expansion shown.

I have had no problem with the RA45T in my Sig P220.

If you are interested in obtaining some RA45T at a decent price, check out this site (though it is down for maintenance right now) http://www.proload.com/
You can still call them at the number on that page.

Welcome to the forum led4evr1978. Make sure you also visit SecondAmendmentMarch.com
 
I greatly appreciate all the higly knowledgeable input from all you guys. I've definitely learned a lot more than I expected to when I posted my question. I appreciate all of you taking the time to educate me a little bit. Many thanks for all the information.
 
The weirdo factor of carrying fifteen year old poser ammo would offset any actual improvement in stopping power.

Ditto for "Extrmeme Shock" or "Drop dead Instantly" or anything else sold in Cheaper than Dirt.
 
note: do not buy ammo like this either.
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/
Exploding pants, ninjas, and media hype are NEVER good reasons to buy ammo.

The good stuff has a proven track record, sells itself based on performance in relatively unbaised tests being fired through different media into ballistic gel to get an idea how it works in the human body, and in general is also heavily marketed toward law enforcment.

I believe this is what the poster above meant by 'sold in cheaper than dirt'

let me amend that to 'only sold in cheaper than dirt' because you can get some good defensive ammo through them relatively cheaply in bulk


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good stuff
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM517-1.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM509-5.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/15833-5.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/62121-5.html
 
I love the fact that the special ops guy is the same one in all 3 pictures... however... they just darkened his face up in the 3rd one...
 
Ranger SXT is the new Black Talon, without the black anti-corrosion coating.

For the record, SXT = Same eXact Thing. :D
 
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