Bolting down the safe

[22-rimfire]

CB, I don't have any experience with "true safe's" or what would commonly be called a vault.

I cut open a small safe with a reciprocating saw. It was in a repo house. I was to toss the contents. After all that trouble, there was nothing of merit in it. I have also seen gun safes that have been cut open.

 

[heeler]

According to the post I read over at the 1911.com forum the guy was on vacation when they hit the place and used several blades.
Since the owner was not there and of course me neither I cant give you a stop watch time but they did and that's for sure.
They opened the side from near top to bottom about eight inches apart or so and just reached right inside there.
I have no idea if the safe was 10 gauge body or 3/16th.
Unless you own a very old Cannon,and even then I doubt it would have more body thickness than 3/16th, the only safe they currently build that is 10 gauge steel is their Traditional series and all others are your run of the mill standard and weak 12 gauge bodied safe.
Does your safe show a date of manufacture?

 

[a1abdj]

How many blades and how much time to do it?

How thick is the steel? Most gun safes are using anywhere from 12 gauge to 3/16", none of which would take a sawzall too terribly long. I have a carbide blade in a circular saw that (according to the manufacturer) can cut 1/4" plate, 6", in 30 seconds. Assuming you have a typical safe that is 30" wide by 26" deep, I'm figuring at about 4 minutes to completely cut your safe in half. Keep in mind that a safe rated at 15 minutes against power tools, using A36 plate, will have a 1" solid body and a 1.5" solid door.

I know with my old Cannon safe, I lost the combination to it (was new and the wife had a bad habit of moving ANYTHING I sat anywhere). Locksmith got there, said oh hell no, call the company you bought that from. I don't see anyone getting into mine without some serious tools and a lot of time.

You would get a similar response from me if you asked me to replace the ignition in a Mercedes. Most locksmiths around here rekey locks and do automotive work. I'm a safe tech, so I don't mess with keys, and only work on safes. Gun safes for me are the easy work. Compared to the other safes I deal with, they are very easy to move, and very easy to open when locked. Lately, I haven't even bothered to carry in the heavier drill with extension cord when I've had to drill a gun safe. I've been using a cordless Dewalt. In many cases it takes me longer to carry my equipment back and forth to the truck than it takes me to open the safe.

 

[Shadow 7D]

aiabdj
I was skimming youtube, the font of ......
saw a run of the mill low end (granite/chinese type) that got drilled for demo and opened, took the guy three whacks and a turn of the handle, and it was done. Made me wonder, what the hell the 'advertised reinforcing plate' was, tin foil?? Also, cordless drill was used.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

And now we come to the point where you can understand why I frequently call some of the most popular "safes" on the market "A triumph of advertising over ability".

900F

 

[Caliper_Mi]

Thanks for the great responses! (as usual) Looks like which side is bolted is less of a concern than other things...

So, based on the above I probably can't afford anything that won't be opened with a Sawzall. Honestly, I am looking right at the border between having a UL security listing or not, but not sure how much weight to put on that little sticker (that seems to cost $400+ )

Going on the assumption that anyone who really wants in will get in and that any smash and grab will be stopped by any safe with locking bolts, is the UL listing that important? It seems that the UL listing gets you a better lock, but the standard of resisting a five minute attack does not seem that impressive since when I go out of the house, it tends to be for more than five minutes at a time

 

[timfromohio]

Everybody mentioned prying safes open and using saws - I had always assumed a thief would make judicious use of a small torch?

 

[heeler]

I have said this repeatedly in these safe threads and that is...
The kind of person(s) that generally break into your home are usually drug heads or teenagers and they generally are using a small prying instrument to gain entry to your home.
While going through your things they discover your gun safe, which is a large steel box and not easily hidden,and you have it bolted down in a strong point setting that keeps a prying attack to a minimum the chances are they wont get in with the tools they have brought with them.
Even a 12 gauge safe with a fairly rigid door is going to be an effort to enter with the tools they have in their hand.
In the post I related to about the Fort Knox safe being sawzalled,well,they used the owners own sawzall and according to the post had to leave the house to go to a hardware store to get more blades.
The fact that he was on vacation gave them ample time,more than most would have to get this done in the first place.
So dont give these guys that chance by leaving power tools laying around unsecured.
Make them work their butts off just to get the opportunity to steal your shoe laces.

Fwiw my home has been hit three times in 31 years and each time they pryed through a door,ransacked every closet,drawer,and cabinet leaving basically nothing untouched and took whatever was valuable.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Tim, why the hell would a thief run the risk of burning the hell out of the contents (paper-cash burns at about 350F) when, at much less risk to himself, the 'loot' and getting noticed, he can pry it open, hack the back out, or cut it open.

If you are dealing with a REAL safe, that you have INCHES OF HIGH GRADE STEEL then yes torching is an option.

look at youtube, there are lots of amateur and professional videos about how to open a gun "safe"

 

[timfromohio]

I just figured a torch would afford much quicker access - risk/reward thing I suppose. I have not seen any of the youtube videos, was just posting my assumption.

 

[Shadow 7D]

not really, some torches are slower than other methods of cutting, and require more care

plasma cutters, and some other industrial type pretty things from TV, are just that, TV

 

[heeler]

Remember guys,we are talking about residential intrusion,burglary,and these guys are not carrying these items such as torches,sawzalls,sledgehammers,five foot pry bars,to your home unless of course they already know you own a safe and then that is target number one,not your flat screen T.V.,Fender guitar,computer,etc.
Loose lips sink ships and all that jazz.

 

[PH/CIB]

Definitely bolt a safe down, preferably to a concrete floor in the basement. Have a plumber put in one sprinkler head over your safe for additional fire proofing. Have a good alarm system put in with cell phone backup and fire monitoring devises besides motion detectors and glass break sensors and check with your police dept on response time, if they respond quickly with 15 minutes a thief has not much time to work with.

Put a sign on the outside of your safe "WARNING you are storing black powder in the safe!" and then either store powder in the safe or don't store powder in the safe, should give them something to think about if the thief is using a cutting torch or drill or saw that might give off sparks and set off a powder charge.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Actually
I would put a large sign (poster board or larger)
instructing firefighters to keep a hose on the safe as it contains
PROPELLANT POWDERED
Flammable, MAY EXPLODE IF HOT

put explosive on it, and some tweeker will try twice as hard to get in thinking you have C4

 

[Owen Sparks]

The safest safe is hidden so that the bad guys do not know it is there. I looked at a house for sale in my brothers neighborhood once and noticed a recess like a small closet in the poured concrete basement wall. There were 4 bolt anchor holes in the floor and I knew that there was once a safe there. The realtor said that the previous owner had a gun safe and kept a spare refrigerator in front of it. A thief would have to move the refrigerator just to find the safe and then break in through the door as the back, top and sides were totaly inaccessable.

I also saw a "safe" made from an old water heater shell that had a carousell gun rack hidden inside. It even had phoney pipes going into the wall. No thief is going to have time to take your water heater apart.

 

[Dan Forrester]

I used a single ½” by 4” wedge bolt with fender washer into the concrete to bolt down my Diebold TL 15. The wedge bolt is rated to hold down 1,750 pounds and the weight of the safe is 950 pounds. Add to this the fact that the safe is only about 2 feet high and maybe 1.5’ by 2’ foot print so it’s hard to get leverage on it. Strangely enough the safe which was bought used had no provisions for bolting it down. Anyone here know why? I would think that anyone who bought a TL 15 safe would think enough about security to bolt it down. Apparently Diebold didn’t think this way when they made this safe; supposedly for a Whacovia bank to go inside the main vault. It didn’t bother me, I just drilled a perfectly sized hole for my wedge bolt and tightened it down.

I recently bolted down a safe for my sister and used three 3/8” by 3.5” tapcons with fender washers to bolt down her “Sturdy Safe”.

Anyway, just make sure you bolt your safe down. My friend had his entire safe stolen out of his garage about two years ago. I just helped him move it in there too.

Dan

 

[44 Dan]

My AmSec was bolted to the wall and floor. Two story four bedroom house leveled by catastrophic fire (Ins Co terms). Only thing left standing was the AmSec. The FD used a Backhoe and chain to rip it out of the debris. All contents survived with only some water damage/light rusting. Wished I had a bigger safe after the fire ~ Got one now. Bolt the hell out of it and keep it full.
Good Luck

 

[a1abdj]

My AmSec was bolted to the wall and floor. Two story four bedroom house leveled by catastrophic fire (Ins Co terms). Only thing left standing was the AmSec. The FD used a Backhoe and chain to rip it out of the debris. All contents survived with only some water damage/light rusting.

Dan,

Do you remember the model of the safe that survived? Do you have any photos showing the damage to the safe and/or contents?

I used a single ½” by 4” wedge bolt with fender washer into the concrete to bolt down my Diebold TL 15. The wedge bolt is rated to hold down 1,750 pounds and the weight of the safe is 950 pounds. Add to this the fact that the safe is only about 2 feet high and maybe 1.5’ by 2’ foot print so it’s hard to get leverage on it. Strangely enough the safe which was bought used had no provisions for bolting it down. Anyone here know why? I would think that anyone who bought a TL 15 safe would think enough about security to bolt it down. Apparently Diebold didn’t think this way when they made this safe; supposedly for a Whacovia bank to go inside the main vault. It didn’t bother me, I just drilled a perfectly sized hole for my wedge bolt and tightened it down.

Most safes 750 pounds and heavier are quite difficult to move. Gun safes are the exception because they are so large you can get plenty of leverage on them. Once you get over that weight, bolt holes aren't very common.

The reason you don't see holes in TL rated safes is because they would fail the test. TL rated safes are only allowed to have one hole (for alarm wires) that is 1/4" or smaller. The only exception to this rule is a TL rated safe with a depository rating.

 

[357phase]

I have an amvault TL-15(1050lbs) and a Hayman magna vault TL-30(1105lbs) that each have a bolt down hole in bottom.Was this a mistake from the manufacurer?Both UL listed.

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't know about you all, but I have tools including serious saws for steel and several reciprocating saws in my garage most of the time. I have cut a hole large enough for an adult to crawl inside a steel UST in about 30 minutes with a couple blades. I don't recall the steel thickness, but it is not thin by any means. A gun safe would be easier in most cases and you go through the side or back, not the front.

 

[a1abdj]

I have an amvault TL-15(1050lbs) and a Hayman magna vault TL-30(1105lbs) that each have a bolt down hole in bottom.Was this a mistake from the manufacurer?Both UL listed.

No. After reviewing the UL standard, I should revise what I said.

I said:

The reason you don't see holes in TL rated safes is because they would fail the test. TL rated safes are only allowed to have one hole (for alarm wires) that is 1/4" or smaller. The only exception to this rule is a TL rated safe with a depository rating.

I should have said that you don't see holes because they could fail. The depository rating is not the only exception. There are other instances in which holes are allowed. Your safes would fall into that "other instances" category.

Reading the UL standards isn't much different than reading some of the small print on a legal agreement sometimes.

I don't know about you all, but I have tools including serious saws for steel and several reciprocating saws in my garage most of the time. I have cut a hole large enough for an adult to crawl inside a steel UST in about 30 minutes with a couple blades. I don't recall the steel thickness, but it is not thin by any means. A gun safe would be easier in most cases and you go through the side or back, not the front.

This is pretty much what it comes down to. Most burglaries are smash and grab, and most do not involve an attack on a safe. But you have to decide what you're wanting to accomplish here. If you're just worried about the guy who's not going to touch the safe anyway, then it doesn't really matter what you're using. I have often suggested a reinforced closet with a dead bolt, as it will accomplish the exact same protection at a much lower price.

However, if you are worried about somebody taking tools to your safe, then you should buy a safe designed to stop a tool attack. This rules out most gun safes.

 

[Jeff F]

(was new and the wife had a bad habit of moving ANYTHING I sat anywhere).

Yea, the mover, I have on of those to!

As to bolting a safe down, I went to the safe place in reno. They sell quality safes. The owner showed me that most all the quality safes do not have any holes in them to bolt them down. Any hole into a safe, even with a bolt filling it will allow heat transfer and diminish the fire rating of the safe.

 

[357phase]

I appreciate your response a1abdj.These little safes are a pain to move around.Only needed one but couldn't pass up the deal I got on the used Amvault.And they are bolted down in the concrete so hopefully a smash and grab want get far with them.Safe's probably worth more than the contents anyway