Bore axis in autos
- Thread starter halfmoonclip
- Start date
Not sure where you got that, but people will tell themselves anything to feel better about not owning one. The Alien is fantastic.
“Gas delayed action” doesn’t slow it down. It has less moving parts than a locked breech pistol.
Bore axis is often used as a marketing tool. Unfortunately it's often misconstrued.
The actual bore axis means very little in fact as the barrel doesn't impart recoil directly to the frame most of it is imparted to the frame thru the recoil spring.
Well that and the weight of the slide, which is almost always higher when the bore is higher.
It’s simple physics. The higher the bore and slide, the more leverage the rearward action has to raise the muzzle.
Bore height alone DOES NOT affect felt recoil. It affects muzzle flip. It’s really not hard to understand. People that totally dismiss it, don’t understand physics.
Old Dog
Member
The going price of the available pistols? Have you even bothered to check what the Alien is going for these days? Most sites have new ones catalogued for $6000-$7000.
https://www.guns.com/search?keyword=Laugo alien
Yeah, it's apparently showing up used commonly for around $4000. Golly gee.
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/101475210
A tad insulting, and quite laughable, that you comment that "people will tell themselves anything to feel better about not owning one." Truly, since most of us don't let price get in the way of buying what we want (with regard to firearms), that wouldn't be the case.
The Alien may be "fantastic." No one here is arguing that. We're talking about whether or not bore axis is a legitimate consideration when buying and shooting pistols.
Thanks for the lecture. I'll admit that I don't understand physics. I do understand what I feel when I shoot, how the reaction of the pistol affects how I shoot and the miniscule difference in getting my muzzle down and sights back on target. No one here is totally dismissing physics, simply challenging the notion that a higher bore access significantly impacts our shooting for the purposes that we shoot our firearms.
Well considering you’re speaking out with some conviction on a gun you have no experience with, I guess it came off as lecturing.
Yes, I know all about the Alien. There’s nothing at all slow about it. The reciprocating slide mass is actually very minimal. The gun is quite fast shooting.
Right now, you can get the standard model without the optic rail straight from Laugo for $3900+tax and shipping. They reduced the price $900 to move some out, since the new model is now available. A nice value, in my opinion.
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,545
As much as Id love to get one of the Aliens and play with it, the reality is, unless you're well off, its an expensive toy and not something more than that for most.
If they were something you were planning on using for anything serious, the realistic cost is more like $8K (at a minimum), and more like 12K plus, as you need more than just one gun, and all the accessories.
One reason the Glocks are so popular is, they offer a reliable product at a reasonable and real world price, for most people anyway. You can have the multiples of guns and accessories you need, so you can have backups and practice guns, and arent out a ton of money should you be unlucky enough to have to use it and lose it to eveidence.
Hell, you can have everything you need for less than what one of the Aliens costs. Something I always tell my buddy when he starts going off about his Nighthawks. 5:1 in guns and gear, and I still beat him every time we get together with a box stock 17.
Seriously though, Id love to have a lot of things, but Im just not seeing the reality/practicality of it.
If they were something you were planning on using for anything serious, the realistic cost is more like $8K (at a minimum), and more like 12K plus, as you need more than just one gun, and all the accessories.
One reason the Glocks are so popular is, they offer a reliable product at a reasonable and real world price, for most people anyway. You can have the multiples of guns and accessories you need, so you can have backups and practice guns, and arent out a ton of money should you be unlucky enough to have to use it and lose it to eveidence.
Hell, you can have everything you need for less than what one of the Aliens costs. Something I always tell my buddy when he starts going off about his Nighthawks. 5:1 in guns and gear, and I still beat him every time we get together with a box stock 17.
Seriously though, Id love to have a lot of things, but Im just not seeing the reality/practicality of it.
Well that’s certainly fair. They aren’t cheap, but they are no more than other top end competition pistols.As much as Id love to get one of the Aliens and play with it, the reality is, unless you're well off, its an expensive toy and not something more than that for most.
If they were something you were planning on using for anything serious, the realistic cost is more like $8K (at a minimum), and more like 12K plus, as you need more than just one gun, and all the accessories.
One reason the Glocks are so popular is, they offer a reliable product at a reasonable and real world price, for most people anyway. You can have the multiples of guns and accessories you need, so you can have backups and practice guns, and arent out a ton of money should you be unlucky enough to have to use it and lose it to eveidence.
Hell, you can have everything you need for less than what one of the Aliens costs. Something I always tell my buddy when he starts going off about his Nighthawks. 5:1 in guns and gear, and I still beat him every time we get together with a box stock 17.
Seriously though, Id love to have a lot of things, but Im just not seeing the reality/practicality of it.
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,545
Which is fine if youre competing. I look at things more as realistic day to day guns and that's what I use, and for everything these days.
I think a lot of times too, when these sorts of discussions pop up, we end up talking past each other and often arent on the same page from the start. See it a lot with the long guns stuff too. The comparisons just arent realistic and even close to the same, more often than not.
Personally, even if I had the money and/or the guns, I wouldn't be carrying anything like any of the top end guns anyway. First off, day to day use on anything/everything you carry is hard on things, and there's nothing wrong with that, it just is what it is, and as I said, Id hate to lose it to whomever, if I actually had to use it, and I seriously doubt that any differences in accuracy that the higher end guns claim to guarantee, will ever be noticed is any kind of real world shooting.
But hey, it is America (if that means anything anymore) and we all get to do what we want (supposedly), so, by all means, smoke'em if you got'em, and carry on. Just make sure you're shooting enough and are up to make anything you use proud, is all that matters anyway. The gun is just the gun.
I hear you on carry guns. I’ve never carried an expensive pistol.Which is fine if youre competing. I look at things more as realistic day to day guns and that's what I use, and for everything these days.
I think a lot of times too, when these sorts of discussions pop up, we end up talking past each other and often arent on the same page from the start. See it a lot with the long guns stuff too. The comparisons just arent realistic and even close to the same, more often than not.
Personally, even if I had the money and/or the guns, I wouldn't be carrying anything like any of the top end guns anyway. First off, day to day use on anything/everything you carry is hard on things, and there's nothing wrong with that, it just is what it is, and as I said, Id hate to lose it to whomever, if I actually had to use it, and I seriously doubt that any differences in accuracy that the higher end guns claim to guarantee, will ever be noticed is any kind of real world shooting.
But hey, it is America (if that means anything anymore) and we all get to do what we want (supposedly), so, by all means, smoke'em if you got'em, and carry on. Just make sure you're shooting enough and are up to make anything you use proud, is all that matters anyway. The gun is just the gun.
halfmoonclip
Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,846
Yeah, if I'd been born rich, instead of good looking, there's a lot of stuff I'd have.
Frankly, wouldn't have asked the question, if Chiappa revolvers didn't have a noticeably milder muzzle flip (which contributes to what we perceive as recoil) than conventional revos.
In any case, it is all very much a matter of degree. Autos with a really tall bore axis will have a noticeable difference, others not so much. Really wish I'd shot a long departed 645 Smith back to back with a 1911. Both are .45s, which would have an affect as well.
With a G19 and a P320, the difference is less than I can measure.
Moon
Frankly, wouldn't have asked the question, if Chiappa revolvers didn't have a noticeably milder muzzle flip (which contributes to what we perceive as recoil) than conventional revos.
In any case, it is all very much a matter of degree. Autos with a really tall bore axis will have a noticeable difference, others not so much. Really wish I'd shot a long departed 645 Smith back to back with a 1911. Both are .45s, which would have an affect as well.
With a G19 and a P320, the difference is less than I can measure.
Moon
Something I always tell my buddy when he starts going off about his Nighthawks. 5:1 in guns and gear, and I still beat him every time we get together with a box stock 17.
You absolutely cannot buy your wins in firearm competition. I’d imagine more than one USPSA Production shooter was butt hurt when the dominating National Champion did so with a Beretta 92. Dominating IDPA champion a stock Glock.. etc etc.
One thing you rarely see is traditional high bore axis pistols like P226/USP’s etc. in the shooting sports.
As for the Alien being a competition gun? There are definitely some shenanigans in getting it approved for IPSC production. In USPSA open you would be starting with one arm and leg tied behind your back. in Limited your shooting minor. I know they just came out with a new slide setup to follow the USPSA CO rules. I don’t really follow IDPA anymore so unsure if there is a class for it or not.
Nevertheless I still want to buy and try one.
Last edited:
Peakbagger46
Member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2009
- Messages
- 1,480
Buy a pistol that points well in hand. Also, do pushups or at least grip exercises.
Doorstopper
Member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2022
- Messages
- 16
Just like to thank everyone for their responses. I find this Very interesting even if I don’t understand it all. I also like the back and forth in opinions. I notice a very little difference with my k9 and 3913tsw. But could be just the way I grip them. To me a fun post.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
Jim Watson
Member
Also "permanent bushing" like a BHP.
I campaigned a P226 in IDPA SSP for a while. When I was tuned up on DA/SA "crunchenticker" I shot ok with no sensation of the "high bore axis".
I shot a Plastic M&P for a while when they went to 15+1 in SSP, preferring it to the usual Glock.
But I am more at home with a 1911 type.
I shoot Minor in USPSA for comfort and control, a stage at Major would kick me into a flinch and I would zero the rest of the day. But then I am a "participant" not a "competitor" as one snotty Benos poster put it.
The shenanigans worked in IPSC, it is on the Production list. Wonder why it is not on USPSA's list.
Why bother with Open? That is the most highly specialized division.
Internet Experts and Range Authorities have been telling entry, casual, and frugal shooters to not bother learning how to reload every ten shots, just fill your stock gun up and shoot Limited Minor. Now we have Production 15, maybe Laugo will sign up. The CO configuration looks serviceable.
Alien will fit IDPA ESP and CO, maybe SSP, I haven't seen policy on that.
"Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal."
Heinlein
Hmm. I could sell off a few seldom-shot guns and snag one of those closeout Aliens.
It’s SAO.. The right paws are not being greased to bend the rules.
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,545
Yea, and for me I’m not good enough (fast enough) to really benefit, so it’s not something I consider/worry about.
But for some folks, it could be an advantage I guess.
Jim Watson
Member
IPSC D4
- Only handguns listed as approved in the Production Division List on the IPSC website may be used in Production Division. Note that handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are expressly prohibited.
Guess there was some selective deeming in Mallorca or maybe Ontario.
Doesn't matter to me, if Laugo wants to sponsor Team Mediocre, I will enter their gun in IDPA ESP and USPSA Limited.
LOL. And they say the USA aint a third world country!
The organization is in disarray so who knows what the future holds.
Precisely why I called it a THR acceptable term.
Reinz, happy to see I'm not the only hopeless magazine slut here!
Though you have me beaten me in pure numbers.
Moon
I don’t want to seem like I’m putting on airs, I am definitely not a rich man.
It took me a few years to build up to that number.
And also, I just can’t pass up a good deal when mags go on sale!
Riomouse911
Member
Reminded me of a T shirt I once saw some guy wearing:Yeah, if I'd been born rich, instead of good looking, there's a lot of stuff I'd have.
Frankly, wouldn't have asked the question, if Chiappa revolvers didn't have a noticeably milder muzzle flip (which contributes to what we perceive as recoil) than conventional revos.
In any case, it is all very much a matter of degree. Autos with a really tall bore axis will have a noticeable difference, others not so much. Really wish I'd shot a long departed 645 Smith back to back with a 1911. Both are .45s, which would have an affect as well.
With a G19 and a P320, the difference is less than I can measure.
Moon
“If I had a dollar for every woman that didn’t find me attractive, eventually those same women would find me attractive.”
Stay safe.
Riomouse911
Member
And just for a bit of visual reference, a few guns in my larder and how they sit in my hand. (YMMV)
SIG P-228 9mm:
Springfield SA-35 9mm:
Ruger SR-1911 .45:
CZ 75 Shadow 2 9mm:
Glock 22 .40 S&W:
Beretta 96 Centurion DAO .40 S&W:
S&W 4013 .40 S&W:
In my mitts, the SIG P-220 and 1911 guns sit really high. Glocks and CZ’s not as much.
Posted just for a bit of perspective.
Stay safe.
SIG P-228 9mm:
Springfield SA-35 9mm:
Ruger SR-1911 .45:
CZ 75 Shadow 2 9mm:
Glock 22 .40 S&W:
Beretta 96 Centurion DAO .40 S&W:
S&W 4013 .40 S&W:
In my mitts, the SIG P-220 and 1911 guns sit really high. Glocks and CZ’s not as much.
Posted just for a bit of perspective.
Stay safe.
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,545
I think Rios photo shoot above is a perfect visual for seeing the difference. If you level your thumb parallel to the slide with your normal grip, and compare the difference between it and the bottom of the slide, its real easy to see the differences between the guns.
halfmoonclip
Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,846
I swear the P320 shares the same bore axis with the older P-228 DA/SA series, for reasons I can't imagine...holster issues?SIG P-228 9mm:
Riomouse, a bunch of pictures are worth a ton of words...good illustrations of the bore axis thing.
Moon
