Bore axis in autos

[jar]

Thank you. Concur completely.

Good points. Haven't shot competition for a few years, but I think I'd stake my times with the 226 Legion SAO against any 9mm pistol with "lower bore axis."

Really? Just how much difference does bore axis make to the average shooter?

I shot against timers for years and never really noticed a difference. Especially since migrating from .45 ACP to 9mm. At the highest levels, pro shooters may be concerned about the slight fraction of a split-second, but for the recreational shooter and self-defense minded gun-owner, much ado about nothing.

So in internet threads about "what handgun should I buy for accuracy and reliability?" how often do we see folks asking as a follow-up "with the lowest bore axis of any pistol?"

I still tend to shoot my old gen1 Wonder-Nine Smith 59 fairly well. It's on it's second barrel, not because there was anything wrong with the bore or lockup but the stupid little shelf the recoil rod abuts got so worn it was a pain to reassemble. Don't think I can make many low bore access claims about any of the Wonder-Nines.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Someone mentioned Sig messing up the P320 because of the high bore axis. You know what has the identical bore axis? A 1911. You can lay a 1911 on top of a P320 and the trigger, beavertail and barrel position are identical. When’s the last time someone said, “This 1911 is great, if only the bore axis was lower

Due respect, Simon, I went noodling out to the safe, and the bore axis on my 1911 is lower than the M18, and the G19 is lower still.
Moon

 

[trackskippy]

Heh. I shoot a lot, even in retirement. Have for years (and was a certified LE firearms instructor for many years after being a military small arms instructor).

I work on shooting the best I can with the gun I have in hand. I'd like to think I "know any better," but I do get a kick out of those that tout Glocks as having the lowest bore axis of the modern pistols out there...

As far as the Laugo Alien goes, not seeing any of these $5200 - $8000 pistols in the wild. And pretty much all the reports I've read is the Alien is a slower-shooting pistol due to its gas-delayed action, so the advertised "lowest bore axis ever" seems to be negated.

I agree, I try to shoot with everything the best I can, and I don't have trouble shooting fairly well with any of them. I shoot most of them pretty regular anyway.

Glocks, and their clones are likely the most reasonably priced guns run into these days that have a lower bore axis than the others. And usually, all the arguing and silliness between them and others, is over other things than bore axis. Some people just need to get out more.

Id love to try out one of the Aliens, but Im not spending that kind of money on what would basically be a toy, unless I hit the Power Ball.

I switched to Glocks from SIG's a while back, simply because I get more guns and accessories for the same money. Nothing at all wrong with SIG's (the older P Series guns anyway ) and I still like them, and always shoot them well. But having been spending more time with the Glocks for the past decade or so, I notice the difference when Im shooting them back and forth.

And Im sure if I went back to using SIG's or 1911's and stopped shooting Glocks, I wouldn't notice any difference. Until I went back to shooting the Glocks.

Its all good. Whatever you have, to be fair to it and yourself, to be good with it, you need to regularly shoot the snot out of it, whatever it is. Bore axis, grip angle, whatever, wont matter.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Also, of interest, is the fact that the true Browning tilting barrel designs (1911, HP and S&W 39 and derivatives) have the bore axis angled muzzle down about 1 degree relative to the line of slide motion down when locked, and parallel to slide motion when unlocked. This effectively increases the distance between the hand and the line of recoil. More modern pistols, such as the Glock, or S&W M&P, have the barrel axis parallel to the frame rails when locked and a rather pronounced muzzle up angle when unlocked.

Now this is interesting. And something I've never been able to discern, just handling these guns.
Always liked Smith 39s, but it's bigger cousin, the 645, really made the difference in bore axis noticeable. Liked the 645, but the high axis made it less shootable than a 1911.
Too, allowing room for the trigger mechanism affects bore axis. The 1911 straddles the magazine, the HiPower sends the linkage up and over. SA/DA guns complicates either of those approaches.
Striker guns avoid that issue.

You are not going to be able to duplicate that in a practical 9mm.

This is certainly true, allowing room for the locking mechanism.
Moon

 

[halfmoonclip]

BTW, fired a buddy's 360 and my 340, with the same ammunition. The recoil in the humpback Centennial is noticeably less sharp than the exposed hammer Chief. That comes down to bore axis; the Centennial sits lower in the hand.
Moon

 

[MarshallDodge]

The bore axis is only one small aspect of a hand gun. It doesn't mean a lot to me.

 

[SimonRL]

Due respect, Simon, I went noodling out to the safe, and the bore axis on my 1911 is lower than the M18, and the G19 is lower still.
Moon

I knew as soon as I posted that someone would come back with my P320 compact isn’t the same. I laid my govt 1911 on top of my X5 Legion and they are identical.

Here’s an M17 and a Kimber 1911 comparison from Handgun Hero.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Due respect, Simon, I went noodling out to the safe, and the bore axis on my 1911 is lower than the M18, and the G19 is lower still.

I laid my govt 1911 on top of my X5 Legion and they are identical.

My curiosity was piqued enough to go out to the garage to snap a couple of picture



Note: I didn't line up the top of their slides. I lined up to bottom of their tangs/beavertails...because that would be the limit of how high your hand could be placed....and the front of their slides are parallel. The Legion frame is deeper as it includes a rail on the dustcover

 

[Tallball]

For me, "bore axis" is a thing, but not much of one.

Everyone's hands are different. Mine are XXL, so just getting and maintaining a good grip on the handgun is my main thing.

I can operate a handgun with a big grip and high bore axis better than I can handle one with a small grip and a low bore axis.

For instance, I deliberately grip a k-frame with original grips very low so I can get my pinky firmly under the butt. This makes the bore axis higher relative to my hand, but it gives me much better control and I shoot better that way.

Everyone is different.

 

[lysanderxiii]

It isn't a trade off as much as a reflection of the limitations of machining at the time Browning designed the 1911.

Most modern semi-auto pistols don't use a front bushing because they don't have to. The hole in the slide that you are referring to as the "bushing" isn't oval (that would take a lot of machining). It only looks like that way because the hole wasn't bored parallel to the top of the slide...it's bored at a downward angle. This allows the slide to lock up the barrel between the front and rear of that hole through the slide. Same principle, just angling the hole rather than the barrel

First they do have a "bushing", it is just that the bushing is machined integral with the slide. A bushing is defined as just a bearing surface, it does not have to be removable, or separate.

Second, it does not take much machining, the oval is formed by boring two cylindrical bores with a slight angle between them, one parallel to the slide and one at the angle the barrel is when the slide is back.
The ovality is only a few thousandth of on inch.

Have you studied some the early automatics and the intricacy of their machining? The Mauser 1896 is a great example of involved machining, they managed to design a gun that has no pins in it. Browning designed something that was easy to machine because and good design is a simple design, not because his methods of manufacture were limited.

The green "circle" is actually an oval formed by the fine green line and is the intersection of the two cylinders.

 

[Reinz]

Sorry I just can’t let this Sig vs 1911 stand.
The Sig has a significant higher bore axis than a 1911.

Forget about monkeying around with laying guns on top of one another.

The grip tang prevents getting too high and giving the shooter a slide cut.

I shoot both guns with the highest hold possible grip. Thus, just measure the distance between the tang and slide.

The Sig is twice the distance over a 1911 At 3/8” versus 3/16” of the 1911.

Further more, if you ride the safety on the 1911 you raised one your strongest digits even higher to control recoil.

When shooting the two guns, I can definitely ”feel” the distance. Probably why Sigs always leave me wanting. And I have 8 or 9 Sigs.

‘BTW - I lined up the tape measure with a straight edge.

 

[9mmepiphany]

A bushing is defined as just a bearing surface, it does not have to be removable, or separate.

I've never heard that, do you have a citation for that definition?

Merriam-Webster defines "Bushing" as: a usually removable cylindrical lining for an opening (as of a mechanical part) used to limit the size of the opening, resist abrasion, or serve as a guide

I've know that a bushing is type of bearing, but not all bearing surfaces are bushings...hence the use of terms, in gun design, such as "removalable bushing" and "bushingless"

First they do have a "bushing", it is just that the bushing is machined integral with the slide.

It sounds like you are defining a "hole" or "opening" used as a bearing (surface).

 

[SimonRL]

Sorry I just can’t let this Sig vs 1911 stand.
The Sig has a significant higher bore axis than a 1911.

Forget about monkeying around with laying guns on top of one another.

The grip tang prevents getting too high and giving the shooter a slide cut.

I shoot both guns with the highest hold possible grip. Thus, just measure the distance between the tang and slide.

The Sig is twice the distance over a 1911 At 3/8” versus 3/16” of the 1911.

Further more, if you ride the safety on the 1911 you raised one your strongest digits even higher to control recoil.

When shooting the two guns, I can definitely ”feel” the distance. Probably why Sigs always leave me wanting. And I have 8 or 9 Sigs.

‘BTW - I lined up the tape measure with a straight edge.

View attachment 1193805
View attachment 1193806

The point made was that the 1911 doesn’t have anything remotely considered low bore axis and yet no one complains. Now as scientific as your eyeballing the tape measure may seem, the article linked below list bore axis heights of many common handguns including the 1911 and P320 both of which rank within the highest end of the scale with the 1911 at 1.74 and the P320 at 1.78. That’s 4/100ths of an. Inch which is significantly smaller than your eyeballed 3/16 of an inch.

But honestly all of that is moot because the discussion was whether high/low bore axis makes that much difference and while it does have a difference in feel, it is nothing that good technique can’t even out as you yourself point out with your high grip and thumb over grip technique, which I also employ. I can tell you because I have compared them that I can shoot practically identical results with my Archon Type B, Govt 1911 and my SAO 226 Legion - which is clearly taller than either of the other two guns.

Pistol Bore Axis Comparison: What is Low Bore Axis?

Which pistol has the lowest bore axis? Find out, and learn all about the pros and cons.

www.guntweaks.com

 

[lysanderxiii]

I've never heard that, do you have a citation for that definition?

Merriam-Webster defines "Bushing" as: a usually removable cylindrical lining for an opening (as of a mechanical part) used to limit the size of the opening, resist abrasion, or serve as a guide

I've know that a bushing is type of bearing, but not all bearing surfaces are bushings...hence the use of terms, in gun design, such as "removalable bushing" and "bushingless"


It sounds like you are defining a "hole" or "opening" used as a bearing (surface).

Semantics aside, you still knew what i was referring to, the surface the barrel rides on at the front of the slide.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Semantics aside, you still knew what i was referring to, the surface the barrel rides on at the front of the slide.

I knew what you were referring to...the angled hole in the slide that serves to stabilize the front of the barrel

The point I was clarifying was your assertion that a bushing existed when it doesn't exist on most modern pistols ...especially when you went on to use an incorrect definition of a bushing

 

[bc1023]

I just picked up an RIA 5.0E and I’m very impressed of how low it is. It’s one of the lowest bore pistols I own.





Other than that, it’s the Laugo Alien and Arsenal Strike One

 

[Reinz]

The point made was that the 1911 doesn’t have anything remotely considered low bore axis and yet no one complains. Now as scientific as your eyeballing the tape measure may seem, the article linked below list bore axis heights of many common handguns including the 1911 and P320 both of which rank within the highest end of the scale with the 1911 at 1.74 and the P320 at 1.78. That’s 4/100ths of an. Inch which is significantly smaller than your eyeballed 3/16 of an inch.

But honestly all of that is moot because the discussion was whether high/low bore axis makes that much difference and while it does have a difference in feel, it is nothing that good technique can’t even out as you yourself point out with your high grip and thumb over grip technique, which I also employ. I can tell you because I have compared them that I can shoot practically identical results with my Archon Type B, Govt 1911 and my SAO 226 Legion - which is clearly taller than either of the other two guns.

Pistol Bore Axis Comparison: What is Low Bore Axis?

Which pistol has the lowest bore axis? Find out, and learn all about the pros and cons.

www.guntweaks.com

The article shows that they used a different Arbitrary measuring point at the grip.

And that is only good IF everyone holds the gun in the Exact same position.

That takes away a serious scientific element. You and I hold a higher grip than the average bear.

Thus it means nothing to me.

I didn’t use calipers because I was lazy and my point was obvious with just an uneducated glance.

Anyway, I’m not looking to argue.


What I find interesting is your experience using those three guns, for low to high axis.

By any chance did you shoot rapid fire with all three and having similar split times?

I’m not asking for graphs or tables, but just if you felt the shot pacing was similar.

If so, it may boil down to back to basics, it’s the Indian and not the arrow.

 

[InTheSwamp]

Glocks, and their clones are likely the most reasonably priced guns run into these days that have a lower bore axis than the others. And usually, all the arguing and silliness between them and others, is over other things than bore axis. Some people just need to get out more.

Lower than most anything out there, at a lower price, usually. Get out and shoot what you have!

 

[SimonRL]

The article shows that they used a different Arbitrary measuring point at the grip.

And that is only good IF everyone holds the gun in the Exact same position.

That takes away a serious scientific element. You and I hold a higher grip than the average bear.

Thus it means nothing to me.

I didn’t use calipers because I was lazy and my point was obvious with just an uneducated glance.

Anyway, I’m not looking to argue.


What I find interesting is your experience using those three guns, for low to high axis.

By any chance did you shoot rapid fire with all three and having similar split times?

I’m not asking for graphs or tables, but just if you felt the shot pacing was similar.

If so, it may boil down to back to basics, it’s the Indian and not the arrow.

I’m not looking to argue either. I was taken aback when someone showed me the relative similarity between the Sig and a 1911.

Actually, I shot all three yesterday along with my VP9 which is probably the “not too hot, not too cold” gun of the bunch. I’m not really getting to grips with the H9 and honestly I’m all over the place with it. I think this is largely courtesy of the 6.5 lb trigger on mine. The main three all have red dots on them while the H9 is still waiting for a plate to ship. The other three go blow for blow and it’s kind of amazing how similar the results are. Even with rapid fire. The 229 feels like it flips more, but the results don’t indicate that. Again, I really think that technique is the great equalizer.

 

[Reinz]

I’m not looking to argue either. I was taken aback when someone showed me the relative similarity between the Sig and a 1911.

Actually, I shot all three yesterday along with my VP9 which is probably the “not too hot, not too cold” gun of the bunch. I’m not really getting to grips with the H9 and honestly I’m all over the place with it. I think this is largely courtesy of the 6.5 lb trigger on mine. The main three all have red dots on them while the H9 is still waiting for a plate to ship. The other three go blow for blow and it’s kind of amazing how similar the results are. Even with rapid fire. The 229 feels like it flips more, but the results don’t indicate that. Again, I really think that technique is the great equalizer.

Thanks for the feedback.

I drank the kool aid on the VP 9 and was really disappointed. I even paid hostage prices on 7-8 extra mags. Big mistake.

I shot it once over a year ago. I have more guns than range time allows so the HK stays home. Only keeping it due to the threaded barrel.


Getting back the whole bore axis thing; I think way too much emphasis is placed there.

You touched on it with technique, but I‘m sure you will agree that recoil management is multi faceted.

Hardware, technique, trigger, grips, ports/comps, stance, experience all come to mind. I’m sure there’s more.

I think the pistol nerd in us all are always looking for that next big thing for an edge.

 

[SimonRL]

Thanks for the feedback.

I drank the kool aid on the VP 9 and was really disappointed. I even paid hostage prices on 7-8 extra mags. Big mistake.

I shot it once over a year ago. I have more guns than range time allows so the HK stays home. Only keeping it due to the threaded barrel.


Getting back the whole bore axis thing; I think way too much emphasis is placed there.

You touched on it with technique, but I‘m sure you will agree that recoil management is multi faceted.

Hardware, technique, trigger, grips, ports/comps, stance, experience all come to mind. I’m sure there’s more.

I think the pistol nerd in us all are always looking for that next big thing for an edge.

I couldn’t agree more. If it all boiled down to one thing then we would love every gun we come across - which is certainly not the case for me.

I drank the VP9 kool aid big time - I have 5 of them. I like the VP9 a lot, the ergos really work for me. It has relegated a lot of my other striker fired guns to the bench. I started out with a couple of P30s but just didn’t like them. That big curved trigger was not my favorite and I had to do too much with them to get them on a par with guns I liked better. I decided to try a VP9 and next thing I knew I was down the rabbit hole.

 

[Reinz]

I know the feeling!

Same situation for me but with 2011’s.

Bought a Staccato to try out, now I have 5 of them along with 2 Atlas’ and over 40 2011 mags.

The rabbit holes we go down for this hobby…

I couldn’t agree more. If it all boiled down to one thing then we would love every gun we come across - which is certainly not the case for me.

I drank the VP9 kool aid big time - I have 5 of them. I like the VP9 a lot, the ergos really work for me. It has relegated a lot of my other striker fired guns to the bench. I started out with a couple of P30s but just didn’t like them. That big curved trigger was not my favorite and I had to do too much with them to get them on a par with guns I liked better. I decided to try a VP9 and next thing I knew I was down the rabbit hole.

 

[halfmoonclip]

My curiosity was piqued enough to go out to the garage to snap a couple of picture
View attachment 1193735
View attachment 1193736

Note: I didn't line up the top of their slides. I lined up to bottom of their tangs/beavertails...because that would be the limit of how high your hand could be placed....and the front of their slides are parallel. The Legion frame is deeper as it includes a rail on the dustcover

Use both the tang and the bottom of the trigger guard for a more accurate estimation of how low the gun can sit in your hand. Too, a .45 barrel is bigger than a 9.
And no, it's not a huge difference.
Moon

 

[halfmoonclip]

The bore axis is only one small aspect of a hand gun. It doesn't mean a lot to me.

Either here or elsewhere, someone made the point that bore axis is much less important, in modestly recoiling guns, is far less significant than if they were firing magnum cartridges.
So the Marshall is no doubt correct; it really is a pretty much esoteric discussion.
Which we are having regardless....
Moon

 

[halfmoonclip]

over 40 2011 mags.

Reinz, happy to see I'm not the only hopeless magazine slut here!
Though you have me beaten me in pure numbers.
Moon