Mark 40
Member
Bought some 22LR a couple of days ago when someone posted about a sale at Academy with free shipping. That's the kind of thing that motivates me to buy whether I really need it of not.
Bought ammo
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My match ammunition (which the 223 ammunition picture) and gunpowder are kept in an environmentally controlled environment.
You know there is a humongous amount of information out there about ammunition aging. It just takes searching for it and I am so surprised that as a whole, the shooting community does not get out their information shovels and dig. I recommend looking on DTIC. These are two reports that are directly related to gunpowder aging, the first one is a good introduction to stabilizers. Mind you, the problems of deterioration of smokeless gunpowder was well known in 1889. One hundred and twenty nine years ago people were creating patents on stabilizing nitrocellulose based gunpowder, and shooters don't know about this? Why not?
ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS
www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf
III. INTRODUCTION
Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.
IV. STUDY
A. ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS
The use of diphenylamine to suppress the autocatalytic decomposition of nitrocellulose contained in propellants was apparently first proposed by Nobel in a German patent in 1889 (48). Shortly afterwards, Germany in great secrecy adopted the use of diphenylamine for most propellants. However, other countries soon were using diphenylamine for this purpose and by about 1910 its use was fairly universal. Berger in 1912 (5) was one of the first investigators to make a detailed study of the stabilization of propellants by DPA. He conducted experiments with the following propellants: a series containing DPA as a stabilizer, a series containing amyl alcohol as a stabilizer, and a series containing no stabilizer. He stored the propellants at temperatures up to 70°C and then tested them by a 110°C heat stability test. He found that the propellants containing DPA were much superior in stability to the other propellants. He also determined the nitrogen content of the nitrocellulose before and after the storage and found that it decreased less for the DPA stabilized propellants than the other propellants.
This is interesting as it is a Norwegian report. Now understand that artillery shells use the same nitrocellulose that is used in small arms rounds, just the gunpowder is a lot slower burning. I would have thought you could not find a better storage location than the Nordic counters, the places are cold. And yet, this report documents ammunition deterioration.
AN EXAMINATION OF AMMUNITION DETERIORATION BY STORAGE
www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a055897.pdf
John Joseph
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The first time I noticed a problem was five old boxes of Remington Parabellum purchased in the mid-70's from a hardware store. At the time I was storing all my ammo in a cool dry linen closet. The stuff simply wouldn't function in the 21st century. I made some inquiries and the hardware store had obtained the ammo from a surplus dealer so who knows how it had been stored before I got it. I finally got around to salvaging the components (other than the powder) early last year. Same with some old Federal 12 gauge shot shells I purchased new, from Kmart, in the mid 1970's----the brass heads were rupturing on firing.
That should purge most of my real old stuff.
Skylerbone
Member
I don't really see the point in arguing about definitions that seem to include everyone except us.
Me? I'm stocked up. I'm also buying. 4,000 rounds last month and why not? Prices were right for me, what I wanted was available, and I had the money at my disposal. I call it supporting the industry, over $1,000 in supplies (rest, scopes, rings, targets, magazines) and no new or new to me firearms.
On stocking up; the best predictor of future events is past events. I felt a bit short-handed on ammo last time. I managed to give away several thousand rounds, some of it to total strangers I met at the gun club and some to friends.
I also sold both ammo and components at a profit. I was cheaper than retail outlets that had it in stock. I've also sold firearms for a profit as well. Some things appreciate in value and I don't mind timing my buying and selling smartly. My advice, it's a buyer's market so buy.
Me? I'm stocked up. I'm also buying. 4,000 rounds last month and why not? Prices were right for me, what I wanted was available, and I had the money at my disposal. I call it supporting the industry, over $1,000 in supplies (rest, scopes, rings, targets, magazines) and no new or new to me firearms.
On stocking up; the best predictor of future events is past events. I felt a bit short-handed on ammo last time. I managed to give away several thousand rounds, some of it to total strangers I met at the gun club and some to friends.
I also sold both ammo and components at a profit. I was cheaper than retail outlets that had it in stock. I've also sold firearms for a profit as well. Some things appreciate in value and I don't mind timing my buying and selling smartly. My advice, it's a buyer's market so buy.
Trunk Monkey
member
I hoard ammunition although I suspect that my "hoarding" is probably a pittance compared to some of our member's stockpiles.
The ammunition panics of the Obama years taught me my lesson well. They also taught me that another ammo panic is not only likely but inevitable. We have an ammunition envelope that we put a couple of bucks in every payday and when we find a sale we buy.
Even if there's never another panic ammunition doesn't just go bad and it's likely that it will never again be cheaper than it is right now
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Saddlebag Preacher
Member
I'm not a precision target shooter by any imagination, but as I grow older, I've found setting at a table and trying for best bulls-eye groups to be slow and very satisfying. I have found that keeping a supply of best grouping ammo for each rifle suits my needs. So I might have a couple thousand .22's of one type, and several hundred of another for my rifles Same for my ARs and hunting rifles. I have a lot of ammo.
Saturday I was in Wally World and there was a good supply of the ammo I use, and didn't need, but there were some boxes of Stingers on the shelf. I haven't seen any that wasn't overpriced for quite a while, but these were about the same as the MiniMags, so I wanted to try a couple of boxes in my rifles to see how they do. The clerk was really surprised when I said I wanted two boxes. He kept asking if I was sure that I didn't want them all (12 boxes) and I said nope, just two. He may have been just trying to sell it out, but he seemed surprised I didn't want them all.
Saturday I was in Wally World and there was a good supply of the ammo I use, and didn't need, but there were some boxes of Stingers on the shelf. I haven't seen any that wasn't overpriced for quite a while, but these were about the same as the MiniMags, so I wanted to try a couple of boxes in my rifles to see how they do. The clerk was really surprised when I said I wanted two boxes. He kept asking if I was sure that I didn't want them all (12 boxes) and I said nope, just two. He may have been just trying to sell it out, but he seemed surprised I didn't want them all.
John Joseph
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Slamfire,
I've been curious about the shelf life of black powder as I've got a 1# can of Goex fffg from the mid 70's. It looks, smells, and behaves normally and it's been kept in a cool dry location, but even so it has been around for a long time. Being black powder there should be no nitrocellulose to outgas nor nitro glycerine to weep. The metal can in't corroded as far s I can see. Have you come across any info on storing BP?
I've been curious about the shelf life of black powder as I've got a 1# can of Goex fffg from the mid 70's. It looks, smells, and behaves normally and it's been kept in a cool dry location, but even so it has been around for a long time. Being black powder there should be no nitrocellulose to outgas nor nitro glycerine to weep. The metal can in't corroded as far s I can see. Have you come across any info on storing BP?
I have not spent the time and effort studying blackpowder that I have studying gunpowder. Blackpowder is a mixture of charcoal, saltpeter, sulfur. I do not know the half lives of charcoal, saltpeter or sulphur.
Archeologists find charcoal that is thousands of not hundreds of thousands of years old. I remember reading Archeologists dating 60,000 year old camp sites in Australia. I don't remember how they date the stuff. Sulfur is an element, volcanoes belch the stuff, seems to be a very stable element. Saltpeter is potassium nitrate. This web site claims a five year shelf life, http://www.romil.com/Data/Products/Shelf-Lives/Shelf-Life-SAR.pdf, Wiki says "Stability and Reactivity: Stable under ordinary conditions of use and storage" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate_(data_page) The stuff is found naturally: A major natural source of potassium nitrate was the deposits crystallizing from cave walls and the accumulations of bat guano in caves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate
I have heard, and I have not investigated further, that if blackpowder is kept dry, it is for all practical purposes immortal. This seems reasonable based on the composition.
I do know that if you spend a little time searching, you will find deaths due to Civil War Ordnance. This was before nitrocellulose guncotton and the explosive shells of the era were loaded with black powder. Blackpowder is very stable when kept dry and very dangerous if dry. It does not take much to ignite blackpowder. The first time I came across a death to Civil War Ordnance was in the 1970's. I kept a newspaper clipping about an explosion in an antique shop in Gettysburg PA. The Antique Dealer had a dug up CW shell and was doing something with it in his shop. Killed him, and if I recall, a customer in the shop.The last CW fatality is still decades ahead of us.
Virginia Man Killed In Civil War Cannonball Blast
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/05/02/virginia-man-killed-in-civil-war-cannonball-blast.html
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John Joseph
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Good to know. Thank you!
A few years ago, a local school had to be evacuated after discovering some old Civil War era cannonball shells in a box. Military sent EOD personnel to gather them up--when detonated--at least one of them was still live.
WWI and WWII ordnance keeps turning up in Europe which still can be dangerous as well. Thanks for posting your ammo information--I was always a bit leery of using old milsurp ammo from dubious sources as my father was an US Army ordnance officer who often had to dispose of the overage stuff from other line units.
coloradokevin
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Did you not just define hoarding behavior right after saying the you hate people who hoard ammo?
I mean, sincerely, I don't blame you for buying ammo when you become worried about a shortage, because everyone has probably been caught with their pants down at one point or another regarding ammo or components. With a Republican legislature I don't see a shortage really amounting to anything, but it's the very act of doing what you just described that leads to the shortages... when an entire market behaves just as you've described, a shortage is inevitable.
Again, I'm not trying to pass judgment here... I just made a bump stock purchase this week because I figure those might become unattainable in the future. If I like it I'll keep it, if not I'll sell it. But, I anticipated this shortage, and my forecast of that market behavior was 100% accurate. I contributed to it in a small way, but so did many others (to varying degrees).
Ignition Override
Member
The day after the LV tragedy, I called Academy and asked the hunting guy whether he had noticed people buying more ammo than usual.
He said "No".
I Just checked .223 and 7.62x39 steel-cased ammo at Gunbot (ammo search engine).
No change from a month ago: both types are still .19-.21/round.
You guys with the cash (and legal age) following the '08, Newtown tragedy, and chance of a Hillary victory had plenty of chances to buy extra ammo.
If you had the opportunity there was absolutely no reason to postpone it.
Everybody knew that nut cases were still on the streets. Last November's election results only removed one of the motivations for widespread anxiety regarding guns/ammo.
But who suddenly removed the more dangerous socio/psychopaths from the streets and casinos?
He said "No".
I Just checked .223 and 7.62x39 steel-cased ammo at Gunbot (ammo search engine).
No change from a month ago: both types are still .19-.21/round.
You guys with the cash (and legal age) following the '08, Newtown tragedy, and chance of a Hillary victory had plenty of chances to buy extra ammo.
If you had the opportunity there was absolutely no reason to postpone it.
Everybody knew that nut cases were still on the streets. Last November's election results only removed one of the motivations for widespread anxiety regarding guns/ammo.
But who suddenly removed the more dangerous socio/psychopaths from the streets and casinos?
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Guy I knew at a Gun store claimed to have been an EOD. He said he was called to a local house where a little old lady kept two CW cannon balls on either side of the fireplace. I guess the symmetry looked good. Upon further inspection they were both fused and full of blackpowder!
Skylerbone
Member
Mine is hardly a postponement, I never stopped buying. To me having 6-7k of .22lr on hand is not an excessive amount. Having 3-4k .223 is not excessive. Keeping a thousand rounds of every other caliber I shoot loaded and ready is not excessive.
When I say I felt shorthanded it was because the extent of the drought was evident in days as people bought components and ammo for calibers they didn't own just to have something. That forecasted a long term shortage for everyone who failed to stock up. I knew plenty of people squarely in that boat and how much I was willing to allocate to keep them shooting.
It also meant plenty of opportunities to demonstrate a bit of grace to those new to our community. Their knowing what they couldn't buy was being shared free of cost (hopefully) invested them with a sense of belonging.
The ammo I sold had a buy it now price and a limit of 1 bulk box to keep the chance of gougers to a minimum. And like bicycles I have sold I often adjusted the price based on the perception of who was buying.
Brass and components which I had plenty of went to my LGS for HIM to determine price on. He gave me a fair deal and he passed that on to his customers. In turn I purchased a number of used .22 rifles that guys had sold to him in disgust over the lack of ammo. Those rifles will soon be inspiring 6 young shooters as they grow in to them.
My final thought is that despite how others feel, I have the right to choose how much to buy and how, when, or if I use it. No shame felt by me, no anger toward others.
Ignition Override
Member
Skylerbone:
yes, and I was only clarifying that lots of people will wait until something causes this problem "next time", wanting Internet Leadership from Other people who have initiative.
. My comments were simply being matter-of-fact.
They won't be able to ask for any sympathy--- if they already had some cash for ammo, and were of legal age to buy it
yes, and I was only clarifying that lots of people will wait until something causes this problem "next time", wanting Internet Leadership from Other people who have initiative.
. My comments were simply being matter-of-fact.
They won't be able to ask for any sympathy--- if they already had some cash for ammo, and were of legal age to buy it
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