Brass is the Bain of my existence!!

[RN]

Why can't I prep my mixed headstamp brass, set up my dies, and get consistant results. This is not a an OAL question although it relates to that in the fact that I can never get into a rhythm..

When I hear people say they get a bunch of brass and just go to town I have to call BS(at least that's what I want to say). I can prep, decap, tumble, prime, powder and load and never get consistant ammo. I have very nice equipment and I have been reading countless sources of information and I know what's what..

I can dial in my dies and hit the ground running but the second a headstamp changes so do all my measurements of the final ammo. I can FEEL the ones that will come up .010 different in either direction. It's ALL about the BRASS and neck tension. A little resistence, OAL is high..no resistence, It's low..I have tried to sort and that does work with certain types of brass(win)There must be something I'm missing because this is not effective at all.

If the neck tension is going to vary piece to peice and you can't get a decent OAL what's the point? I would have thought that the resizing dies job would be return ALL brass to and acceptable level. I also would assume that the press would have enough juice to place the round where you want it without a thicker or thinner peice of brass being able to determine where you are trying to get it..

Is the trick to buy new brass and reload that only? I have a feeling that's the only way reload consistently..that would still offer some savings but it's a real bummer that I can't get this once fired range brass going smoothly..

I sure hope that someone says something like buy a EGW die or GRX dies will fix it!! I am loading on a T-Mag and have tried RCBS, Horandy dies in .40 caliber..I have crimped only to remove the very slight bell and on a stand alone die. Help!

 

[mstreddy]

RN,
Not BS, but it really depends on what you are loading for...
I load pistol ammo for plinking. In 9MM, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 380ACP and even 38 super I don't sort by head stamp. I just grab a bunch of brass, some primers, bullets, etc and load. I do notice a difference on sizing some 9mm, but for the most part I don't worry about it.
In 38 spcl and 357 Mag, I do sort by head stamp, as I feel a difference in expanding/seating with lead SWCs.
In rifle, I do sort by head stamps, but that's more for determining crimp removal in 223/308/30-06.
In 223, once sorted, I process in batches of hs, but end up loading all once processed.
Again, YMMV, but what are you loading for?
I'm not worried about a slight variation in OAL in my finished pistol rounds as long as they plunk test fine.

 

[Longhorn 76]

Lead or jacketed.
With lead, lube can build up in the seater die.
A seater that does not match the bullet can cause problems. You can buy a seater, but I usually put a fan of epoxy in it, and let it cure with a bullet in it.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I have never sorted pistol brass and never trimmed it. My loads group as good as any factory ammo I have tried.

 

[Reloadron]

You don't mention a caliber? I'll share my general experience from my OCD experiences.

The trick to making consistent ammunition is consistent loading. Go ahead and deprime and size some mixed cases. Now weigh them. Now trim them all the same and weigh them again. Well if the outside dimensions are all now equal and the weights are different then the inside dimensions won't be the same nor the case capacity. Now use a ball micrometer and measure neck thickness on the sample cases. Before the first kernel of powder is dropped look at every aspect of the process that will induce change. Everything needs to be the same. You want everything as consistent as possible. One by one eliminate the differences that cause errors. Then every powder drop again needs to be consistent as does every bullet seating depth. From what you describe changing dies won't matter. There will always be variables and you want to eliminate as many as possible. While some variables don't matter much the end result of a collection of small errors is cumulative making for a larger error.

The bench rest crowd in some cases takes OCD hand loading to a new level. They check flash hole and primer pocket uniformity. Just as an example.

When I played this game I would chronograph my loads. While not perfect it would give me a good idea of how consistent my practices were in making my ammunition. This applies to rifle for the most part.

So what caliber?

Ron

 

[Otto]

A variance of .010 in OAL isn't anything to lose sleep over.
And you don't need to use virgin brass to achieve reliability or accuracy.
Load up some rounds, see how they group and go from there.

If your 40 cal. cases are 'Glocked' and won't slide in your barrel...that's a different issue.

 

[jwrowland77]

OAL can easily vary .01. If you want to know if they're the same, measure base to ogive, as the ogive is where the die pushes to seat the bullet.

In pistol, I just load and go on my Hornady Auto Progressive. I only shoot pistol as a break from my rifle shooting.

For rifle: I'm one of those competition shooters Reloadron was referring too. I weigh, check case capacity, neck turn, uniform primer pockets, uniform flash holes, anneal after every firing, etc etc all the way to weighing and measuring my bullets as well. It shows up on paper at 600 and 1000 yards though.

 

[LiveLife]

T-Mag and have tried RCBS, Horandy dies in .40 caliber

If you use mixed range brass with unknown number of reloadings, headstamp, lots, condition of brass, variance in bullet nose ogive/length etc., you are going to see stacking of variables that will result in OAL/COL variations. Your reloads are only going to be as good as the sum of the components you use. Even with Montana Gold/Remington/Speer/Winchester jacketed bullets, I see slight variations. It's simple fact of life. Measure some factory rounds and when you see the variations in OAL, it will make you feel better.

When I am doing load development, I will load my test rounds on the Pro 1000 on the longer side but will "final" seat/taper crimp to exact lengths as I could see variations that range by several thousandths. Once I determine the OAL that works reliably (with resized case length variation factored in to compensate), I use that OAL as my final "working OAL".

 

[RN]

Thanks for the replys and this headache is for .40 caliber. I use a T-Mag 2 for pistol and a CO-AX for others.Hornady and RCBS dies for pistol and Ultra Forster dies for rifle..Chargemaster for powder..Lots of good stuff and I am having a blast except for .40 cal..

I would not worry about varying oal's in lower pressure rounds. I can achive very consistant OAL's if using the same headstamp.(or close) I guess it's like one of you guys said..It's all about consistency so I am going to just buy same headstamp brass or new starline and squeeze as many loads as possible out of those..

The best way that I can see reloading once fired range brass is to sort and load..Get to the next headstamp and adjust your seater(because it's going to be different) and load those up..

This is where laupa brass really shines..Cost a lot but getting consistant loads upwards of 12 times is worth every penny. I don't think they sell Laupa .40 though..

 

[rsrocket1]

OAL should depend only on the contact point of the bullet and the distance from the shell plate to the seating stem of the die at the top of the stroke with your press. This means if you seat bullets to 1.135", they should all be 1.135" so long as the seating stem is contacting the bullets at the same spots. If a case is 1/8" longer, your OAL will still be the same. Your seating depth would be different, but the volume of space inside the case will be the same so you will only differ in the neck tension.

 

[Rule3]

I load about every handgun caliber, and 4 rifles. I have all mixed brass and use LEE dies. I do not sort brass by headstamp and do not have any issues with changes in COL or any perceived problems with neck tension.

I do not trim handgun brass either. I guess I do not fully understand what exact problem you are having??

On straight wall cases say 357 Mag trying to match a cannelure in a JHP bullet like an XTP then yes the cases need to be trimmed to match exactly. With lead bullets there is enough variance in the cannelure that the crimp will fall within the "groove"

I shoot most 9mm and 45 ACP and probably have every headstamp made in buckets of brass. They all work.

 

[ImjinScout85]

I load a lot of .40 and haven't had any issues with mixed range brass. I only use Berry's 180gr FP and I load on my hornady lnl. I setup for 1.125 on a OAL and I might run from +/- .003 but its not an issue. Are you using a separate crimp die.? I seen more variation when I was seating and crimping in the same stage, but that's why I went to separate operation for sreat and crimp.

 

[RN]

Are you saying neck tension will not effect OAL? If that's true than I have truly lost my mind!! It can't be..From what I can tell, neck tension or at least brass make up is almost the sole factor in vary oal's in mixed headstamp brass..

If I have 20 WIN headstamp I can seat every one of those to 1.125..

If I then load up a group of federal, I can barely feel them compared and they inevitably seat to 1.115

PMC(very tight) will load up to 1.130-1.135..

It's the brass...

 

[RN]

I load a lot of .40 and haven't had any issues with mixed range brass. I only use Berry's 180gr FP and I load on my hornady lnl. I setup for 1.125 on a OAL and I might run from +/- .003 but its not an issue. Are you using a separate crimp die.? I seen more variation when I was seating and crimping in the same stage, but that's why I went to separate operation for sreat and crimp.

If that's true then something's wrong with either me or the two sets of new dies I have. I don't belive that's the case. The dies must be working becuase the measurements in the sized brass are good. Let's say I go load up 50 new starlines right now. I could consistanly seat every bullet to my chosen depth..The dies must be ok to achive that.

If I then grab 50 fedaral cases they are going to seat to a different level(OAL) then the starlines. In other words, I have to adjust my seating die for different headstamps. Oh, I use a separate Crimp..

 

[Onward Allusion]

Um, I don't think it's BS, but I only load 38/357 with brass that I'd accumulated over the last 20 years. So, we're talking a wide collection of manufacturers & specs, even with the same manufacturer because of the wide time range. With that said, I do weigh every load with a scale and don't use a thrower. Also, consistent for me is 50 feet in a 3 inch group off-hand.

 

[Conservidave]

i remember when i first started reloading, i thought brass would be the one thing i would never have to buy. One and a half years later i figured out that if i was going to make premium (in my mind) ammo, i would have to start with premium components. New Brass, Its the one thing the factories have that i don't for every round thats pumped out. Either way, i still believe that my ammo is better than anything i could buy.

 

[RN]

I don't really think it's BS...lol..If you can actually prep and process mixed headstamp range brass and go to town with it only changing +\- .003 then I must be doing something very wrong.I can not achive that..Period..

It's not my equipment, I don't think its me but something up if you guys can do it and I can't..I wish I knew..

 

[ImjinScout85]

RN, not sure what's going on but something is happening as you are having issues. For me I ave always loaded mixed range brass and to be honest I can't tell the difference when I'm loading on my progressive. The thing I notice is when I add the bullet to the case, as I bell the case mouth very little, sometimes the bullet sits in the bell mouth easier than others. This is what I attribute to mixed range brass as the case being thinner than others, but it no way does it affect the seating. Have you tried to figure out what headstamp gives you the most problems? And what type of tolerance are you trying to hold.

 

[LiveLife]

OK, even when I load on my C-H single stage press, I WILL experience occasional "slight" variation in OAL by a few thousandths which I attribute to bullet seating stem hitting variations in bullet nose/ogive.

I would not attribute the OAL variation to brass/lot quality variations. There's too much mechanical force applied to the ram by the lever to be influenced by neck tension resulting from friction between bullet and case neck.

Any engineer types care to comment?

 

[rsrocket1]

OK, here's an illustration I quickly made just now with Powerpoint. The distance between the seating stem and shellplate is fixed by the press. You see an empty die, one with a normal length case, a case too tall and a case too short. See how the OAL should be the same regardless of case length. Make sense?

 

[LiveLife]

Great illustration rsrocket1!

 

[RN]

I am lost on this then..Something is really wrong..I don't know what it could be but its repeteable..I will try and explain this as simplly as I can with results form just a moment ago..

20 NEW Starline Brass Loaded with Xtream 180gr seats to 1.125-1.127

Next

20 Processed Fedaral cases Loaded with same bullet seats to 1.115-1.117

Next

20 PMC cases Loaded with same bullet seats to 1.128-1.130

Same press, dies, force, bullet, etc..The only variable that causes a significant change in OAL is the BRASS..What's going on?

 

[RN]

OK, here's an illustration I quickly made just now with Powerpoint. The distance between the seating stem and shellplate is fixed by the press. You see an empty die, one with a normal length case, a case too tall and a case too short. See how the OAL should be the same regardless of case length. Make sense?

RSRocket...Love the graphic..Brass lenght is not the issue..I understand your graphic and that's not the issue..It seems that the amount of neck tension specific to a brand of brass is causing the different OAL's. The bullet seating is consistant within its brass type. Why the press would not force the Bullet lower in the PMC due to it having stronger/thicker walls is beyond me.It surly has enough pressure to do this. My seating level in the die never changed in my example above so something weird is going on. Maybe the press is not working right?

 

[LiveLife]

20 NEW Starline ... 1.125-1.127

20 Processed Fedaral ... 1.115-1.117

20 PMC ... 1.128-1.130

Same press, dies, force, bullet, etc..The only variable that causes a significant change in OAL is the BRASS..

What's going on?

Are you sure you have the seating die adjusted with the ram lever in "fully down" position with the ram/shell holder at the highest position?

 

[RN]

Yep..On the RCBS carbide dies you can only screw it down so much due to the crimp feature..I don't use the crimped in the seating die..I have a separate Hornandy for that..

I am beginning to think that the press might be flexing with the stronger/thicker cases and not flexing with the thinner walled cases..in other words, if there was no flex at all on the stronger cases it would consistently seat to the lowest numbers that are showing up on the weak fedaral cases..Makes sense?