Brass is the Bain of my existence!!
- Thread starter RN
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The bench test that I am referring to is just a simple way to tell if you have enough neck tension. If I push a round against the bench with a little pressure the bullet will slide back in the case. This only happens to my rounds that seat with a lower OAL. It's due to the brass not having enough bullet tension.
Arkansas Paul
Member
That little variation wouldn't bother me a bit. I usually don't load to the max and a few thousandths isn't going to cause pressure spikes.
I usually get the die set to a comfortable level and start loading. I measure about every 20 rounds and if it's as close as what you're seeing, I put em in the ammo can for storage.
If you see any difference at the range, you're a hell of a lot better shot than I am. Which is entirely possible.
Captaingyro
Member
I have been following this thread with interest. I understand the OP's problem, I think his analyses of variable case thickness and press flex are pretty astute, and some of the comments have been very helpful.
I regularly shoot with a man who is recognized nationwide as a reloading authority, and sorting handgun cases is something he insists is unnecessary. In fact, he has done controlled studies where he has tested the relative accuracy of batches of reloads where the only variable is sorted vs. unsorted cases. He has found no statistically significant difference.
That having been said, I sort handgun cases, for exactly the same reasons as stated by the OP and some others here. Accuracy aside, it bothers me that the rounds I produce with mixed cases are not as consistent as those I get with sorted cases. He ribs me about it, and I have to admit that he can shoot the eyes out of a snake at unbelievable distances with his bag 'o mixed-brass reloads, but I still prefer to sort.
The one area where I think my reloads are superior to his is in consistent feeding. He will occasionally get a round that fails to feed properly; I rarely do. He considers this to be inconsequential. He's using his reloads for recreational shooting, not life-and-death combat. The two of us simply have different priorities: I value pride of workmanship a little more than he does, but he probably does a little less work than I do. We both have a ton of fun shooting, and have both probably learned a little something from each other.
I regularly shoot with a man who is recognized nationwide as a reloading authority, and sorting handgun cases is something he insists is unnecessary. In fact, he has done controlled studies where he has tested the relative accuracy of batches of reloads where the only variable is sorted vs. unsorted cases. He has found no statistically significant difference.
That having been said, I sort handgun cases, for exactly the same reasons as stated by the OP and some others here. Accuracy aside, it bothers me that the rounds I produce with mixed cases are not as consistent as those I get with sorted cases. He ribs me about it, and I have to admit that he can shoot the eyes out of a snake at unbelievable distances with his bag 'o mixed-brass reloads, but I still prefer to sort.
The one area where I think my reloads are superior to his is in consistent feeding. He will occasionally get a round that fails to feed properly; I rarely do. He considers this to be inconsequential. He's using his reloads for recreational shooting, not life-and-death combat. The two of us simply have different priorities: I value pride of workmanship a little more than he does, but he probably does a little less work than I do. We both have a ton of fun shooting, and have both probably learned a little something from each other.
illinoisburt
Member
I have to concur with this. The turret by design has some amount of movement or flex up or down in order to turn in the tool head. I suspect if you switched over to using a single stage O- or D- press the OAL inconsistencies would disappear given the die cannot move in the press. Bench rest rifle competition at 1000 yards I could see maybe some issue for the guys that seat just off the lands having leade changes, however for all practical purposes a change in OAL of a couple thousandths in an auto pistol amounts to nothing in terms of point of impact or velocity.
For an interesting experiment, load using unsorted headstamps. Afterwards sort by OAL then head to a range with chronograph. I'm betting against any measurable deviation in speed or point of impact will appear. Then again if it does then OAL OCD for everyone.
Yes, I use the "test" more so on heavy recoil Magnum loads that need a a heavy crimp. In loading 40 SW or 9mm I would say you have a sizing die.seating die issue. A regular seating die if the body of the die is set to deep will start to crimp and it also will tend to seat the bullet and additional fraction.
Not being there or seeing it we can all just make WAG as to what the problem is.
I hope you can figure it out.
Rn try seating your bullets with out expanding your case. Some of your variances can come from different case lengths being expanded more are less. A longer case will be expanded more then a shorter case. I have good luck with plated bullets seating with no expander die. It also gives you really good neck tension. This only works with plated bullets. I have to use a expander for jacketed bullets.
LiveLife
Member
Glad to help.RN said:
I am sending you WIN/S&B/Magtech/Federal/Blazer etc. 40S&W brass resized with RCBS and Lee carbide sizing dies (I am sending you resized brass with RCBS sizing die to use as "control").
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i had that sort of problem with a turret press once. i was going from win. brass to mag-tech. i used the die to hit the turret and bring it up pushing to create tension, then i adjusted my seating die plunger. i also flared a bit more i know its harder on brass but it seemed the mag-tech brass was coming back from the flare a bit. i always crimp my bullets pretty good, table test is a must for me. not a problem as long as i use the same crimp from when i start to work a load up.
mstreddy
Member
OP - Did you measure the bullets themselves for variance? Did you check a sample of them for shape variance as well?
Bullets do vary and the neck tension question aside, they will be longer/shorter and affect the COAL.
Bullets do vary and the neck tension question aside, they will be longer/shorter and affect the COAL.
RealGun
Member
Measure the head thickness by headstamp. The dies don't account for that, which hides under the shellholder, but it is part of measuring COL.
LiveLife
Member
RN, I will also send you a sample of Montana Gold 165 gr JHP and RMR TP 180 gr RNFP so you can compare OAL consistency with your X-Treme bullet using your resized brass to rule out bullet nose/ogive variations.
I also have Berry's 180 gr TCFP and RNFP if you want to compare them too.
I also have Berry's 180 gr TCFP and RNFP if you want to compare them too.
CoalTrain49
Member
Well, I'm sure that different brands of brass have different wall thickness. Military brass is way thicker than commercial brass etc. Also with range brass you really never know how many times it's been fired. The sizing die is eliminated because it sizes all the cases the same and some of them can be loaded to your satisfaction. The seating die only has one function and that is to get the bullet into the case with a proper OAL. A variation of .005" isn't going to matter with any commercial bullet that is constructed properly. I'm not saying it isn't a bullet design problem, just not what I would expect. I believe the failed bench test is the result of a poor crimp on that particular case. In this situation you will need to ID the ones that fail the bench test, not by OAL but case mfg. You may have several different mfg's that fail but I think you will see a pattern. And I believe you are correct when you say it's a tension problem. You will need an adj crimp die like a LFCD to apply more crimp to these cases.
JMO and could be way off base.
ljnowell
Member
The crimp die on a 40s&w isn't the problem when a loaded round fails the push test on a table. More crimp will probably just make it worse.
I have not received the test brass yet firm BDS but I did receive my new EGW U die..I set up a run of 50 U die sized cases and loaded them up. This time I used my CO-AX(brand new) and the the same Hornady seating die..The result? Fanfreakingtastic!! All mixed brass loads have perfect neck tenison and EVERY one was +/- .002 of my set OAL of 1.125
I will try the Hornady FL die and see if the results are the same. Then we will know if I was having press issues with the T-Mag..
I will try the Hornady FL die and see if the results are the same. Then we will know if I was having press issues with the T-Mag..
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I'm sure you know the Forster Co-Ax press has A LOT of leverage for little effort. That press is one class act for sure...
Archangel..That's for sure..I have tried everything on it just a litte(just got it in Yesterday) and it's by far the sweetest press I have ever touched..Everything about it screams quality..It really is that nice and I can tell from using it that it's going to be around for my grandkids one day..Not yet though!! I'm 42 and and plan to get my money out of it..
ImjinScout85
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RN, glad to hear some good news on your issue. So it sounds like the press was the issue then? I'm sure the hornady dies will work fine.
@Scout..Thanks and I hope so..At least We know there IS a solution by using the EGW U die..that die has it's place on my bench for sure..Might work the brass more but how that really translates to brass longevity is yet tot be determined for me.
If the Hornandy FL dies work tomorrow on the CO-AX with another 50 rounds then we know it was the press flex or something else in the linkage etc.. The good news on the T-Mag front is that Lyman is sending me all new parts to try out.. I have heard ify things about their customer service but in my one experience with them they have been very accommodating..
Now that I have used the CO-AX I don't think the T-Mag will see very much precision loading use. I have already set up the dies that will be a good fit for it. On the T-Mag now sits a Bullet Puller, Universal Decap, Ram Prime, etc.. I now much prefer the unique priming system on the CO-AX..Similar but more precise than the ram prime..
If the Hornandy FL dies work tomorrow on the CO-AX with another 50 rounds then we know it was the press flex or something else in the linkage etc.. The good news on the T-Mag front is that Lyman is sending me all new parts to try out.. I have heard ify things about their customer service but in my one experience with them they have been very accommodating..
Now that I have used the CO-AX I don't think the T-Mag will see very much precision loading use. I have already set up the dies that will be a good fit for it. On the T-Mag now sits a Bullet Puller, Universal Decap, Ram Prime, etc.. I now much prefer the unique priming system on the CO-AX..Similar but more precise than the ram prime..
LiveLife
Member
So do you want me to send out the resized brass now?
Locking rings tight
Had a friend years ago that complained of the same problem. I finally went over and checked it out, Was a little surprised to see that the seating die locking rings were backed way off. It was allowing the die to move up to about .010. THis was about the same as the clearance as the slop on the threads to the press threads,.
Might want to make sure once you set the die, you tighten the locking rings at its correct position.
Had a friend years ago that complained of the same problem. I finally went over and checked it out, Was a little surprised to see that the seating die locking rings were backed way off. It was allowing the die to move up to about .010. THis was about the same as the clearance as the slop on the threads to the press threads,.
Might want to make sure once you set the die, you tighten the locking rings at its correct position.
magic mike
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Been following this thread for a while and many offer good advice. I do not believe different headstamps are the problem. I do believe flexing and mechanical operating clearances are. To my point I offer the following video for your review.
http://youtu.be/0Y6d2SWzKR4
Mike
http://youtu.be/0Y6d2SWzKR4
Mike
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