Brass is the Bain of my existence!!

[blarby]

Erm.

Bulk plated bullets will give you OAL variations. Heck, most first rate jacketed bullets can give variations of this size.

Your dies seat to depth off the ogive of the bullet.

You are measuring it from tip to tail.

The bullets are not seated in this fashion, and any variation in ogive pitch or plating thickness will effect your measurements in this way.

Try a bullet/cartridge comparator, which measures as most factory seating stems seat- to the ogive.

As previously stated, a tolerance of the magnitude you are focusing on is fine.

I dont understand the issue you are seeing in post 22. This does not happen to me.

 

[cfullgraf]

Same press, dies, force, bullet, etc..The only variable that causes a significant change in OAL is the BRASS..What's going on?

OK, this will mess with your mind.

When I am setting up a seater die for an over all length, I make small adjustments in the seater plug until I achieve the length I am looking for.

Then, I take the next case and seat the bullet with the seater stem at the final setting from the "test" case and the over all length is different!

I make another adjustment and get the seater to seat the bullet at my desired position on a single stroke.

Stated another way, several small steps in seating will yield a different overall length than with a single seating stroke.

Hope that makes sense.

Finally, different brass will have some different properties, especially cases that have been fired and resized. The cases do get work hardened. Higher seating loads will deform the bullet slightly which can affect the seating depth. There are a number of other properties that can affect the load required to seat the bullet.

I cannot say I have noted the range of overall length variability with different head stamped cases. It may be that once I get the die set, I do not worry about it for the rest of that session.

I believe reducing variability in ammunition will improve accuracy. Trouble is determining which variables will give significant improvements.

 

[LiveLife]

Just to be sure, I would take apart the seating die and make sure it is clean without any debri.

Are you using a flat seating plug?

 

[RN]

Nope..The ogive plug that came with the RCBS..I think the flex might be the issue..Harder/Tighter brass is flexing the turret up and causing seating at a higher OAL..Weaker/thinner brass is seating with no flex And therefore seating to the "true setting"..Problem is that I set my depth using starline which is new and tight causing the press to flex up and not seat at a true distance..Going to try in a different press but my co-ax won't be till Tuesday..if this lyman t-mag has caused me this much grief I am going to be PO..

My guess is that if there were no slop in the head all bullets be forced by the ram to the same level as weaker brass..Make sense?

 

[243winxb]

Is the Trim length different on all 3 brands of brass?

I am lost on this then..Something is really wrong..I don't know what it could be but its repeteable..I will try and explain this as simplly as I can with results form just a moment ago..

20 NEW Starline Brass Loaded with Xtream 180gr seats to 1.125-1.127

Next

20 Processed Fedaral cases Loaded with same bullet seats to 1.115-1.117

Next

20 PMC cases Loaded with same bullet seats to 1.128-1.130

Same press, dies, force, bullet, etc..The only variable that causes a significant change in OAL is the BRASS..What's going on?

Lee-

Possible cause for bullet seating depth variation is seating and crimping at the same time when trying to apply a firm crimp to untrimmed cases. Variation in case length also causes variation in the amount of crimp applied. Long cases get a heavier crimp than short ones. When seating and crimping at the same time, the crimp is formed as the bullet is seated into the case. The crimp will form sooner on a long case, and therefore the bullet will not be seated as deeply.

You may think your seating and crimping in separate operations, but some seating dies are tigher than others. A taper crimp seating die may start removing the bell/flare soon after the case mouth enters the die. The inside of the seating die needs to be opened up to a larger diameter so the flare/bell is not remove till the round goes to the next taper crimp die. This is my guess. Good luck.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO you are obsessing over a perceived problem that really isn't a problem. Then you call BS on those of us who don't have the problem you're seeing. You are worried about such small variations with no real reason to worry.

Open a brand new box of factory 40 S&W ammo and check the OAL of a dozen or so rounds. You will probably see just as much variation or more than you are seeing in your ammo.

BTW, you are telling us the "problem" goes away when you sort your brass and use one headstamp so use the same headstamp like a lot of us already do.

I can load 180 to 200 rounds of quality ammo per hour and sometimes a little more if I'm on a roll. You can choose to call that BS if you want but be careful about insulting those who you are asking for help. Back off on the OCD and enjoy shooting the ammo you produce. I'm sure your gun will not notice the ever so slight variation in COAL especially since that number doesn't reflect how deep the bullet is actually seated in the case. (as already explained above)

 

[ddc]

Just a new reloader so maybe way off base here...

If we accept the premiss that the OAL length follows the diffent headstamps... then...

could it be that although the initial seating depth is the same for the different headstamps there is then a "pushback" occurring due to the springback effect that a metal such as brass will exhibit when distorted? The different headstamps could have different brass material characteristics as well as different dimensional characteristics that cause different springback/pushback results thereby altering the original seating depth and subsequent OAL?

That's just a brainstorm and it's been a looonnngg day so.....

 

[Rule3]

Erm.

Bulk plated bullets will give you OAL variations. Heck, most first rate jacketed bullets can give variations of this size.

Your dies seat to depth off the ogive of the bullet.

You are measuring it from tip to tail.

The bullets are not seated in this fashion, and any variation in ogive pitch or plating thickness will effect your measurements in this way.

Try a bullet/cartridge comparator, which measures as most factory seating stems seat- to the ogive.

As previously stated, a tolerance of the magnitude you are focusing on is fine.

I dont understand the issue you are seeing in post 22. This does not happen to me.

I was going to say this also. You beat me to it. At one time when I used Berrys Plated bullets (I no longer do) I got a batch of 124 gr 9mm. The COL was varying a lot. Drove me crazy. I then measured the bullet lengths and they fell withing 3 different groups or lengths. I returned them for a refund.

This also happened with a batch of a 110 gr 30 carbine bullets that I bought as blems. The lengths were all over the place.

RN,
What bullets are you using, measure a bunch of them and see if the are different lengths??

 

[RAT807]

Sounds like turret flex maybe a part of your OAL issue. As for consistently accurate ammo, here's some of my findings.
New Starline brass, wt sorted trimmed to same OAL, flash hole deburred, uniformed primer pockets and I chamfer and debur the case mouth slightly. I flare the case mouth to .376-.377 depending on bullet diameter (.355-.356). The slight chamfer helps the bullet to slide in the case without shaving the copper jacket or plating off the bullet. Bullets are sorted by ogive lengths. Bullet seater stem also contacts close to the ogive. I found a box of bullets that ranged from .243-.261 for the ogive or bearing surface of the bullet. I grouped these together in groups that varied no more than .003 (ex 241-.244) and this really tightened up my groupings.
I weigh every charge with a Scott Parker tuned Redding beam scale. The manual calls for an OAL of 1.075" but my Glock like them at 1.090" and a FGM100M primer. This load has put 4 rounds in the same hole at 25yards from a bench.

Now for range brass, brass is sorted by weight and head stamp + OAL. I try to keep brass weight within 1 grain and OAL within .002. I don't use Federal Gold Metal Match primers for range brass and most time use a separate bullet not quite as accurate. So for plinking and practice I want cheaper components but still pretty accurate (6" plates at 25 yards). Powder charge is slightly different for best accuracy but I still do the same process.
After some chron tests my gun likes certain speeds for accuracy (1150-1160). Different bullet bearing surface lengths, amount of crimp, powder charge and primer all affect the speed. I lost speed and accuracy if I crimp or even straighten the bell on the case mouth. The FGM100M primer gives slower speeds but give more consistent velocity. Single digits ES are very common.

But, even doing all of this, some bullets don't shoot good in my gun and some brass my die will not straighten. I roll every round to confirm it is straight. I would use my Hornady Concentricity gage but 9mm is to short to use it.

 

[1SOW]

One of the first goals in operating a press is to have a consistent handle pull--agree?
With that consistent handle pull I have the same headstamp variation as RN
I'm using a Lee turret press loading 9mm. This is essentially a single stage press, so every pull is on only one case.

If I'm loading 9mm WIN brass (yes, by headstamp) and load 20 cartridges with +/- .0015" oal variation, and a Federal case is accidentally in the batch of WIN brass;, I guarantee the oal on the federal will be .005" or more shorter than the Win Brass.

If I'm "just" loading Federals, I'll get fine oals with the seating die adjusted properly. If a Nato Win case slips in with the Federals, the opposite will happen--every time.

There is less resistance to seating the bullet with the softer Federal brass in 9mm. The die can be set to uniformly compensate for this.
This isn't bull, I've experienced it many times.
I have a short chambered 9mm CZ, so with some bullet nose shapes I can't really afford to be over .005+ thousandths long. With closer to max loads, I don't want to be .005+" shorter with an already deep seated JHP or FN bullet at high pressures.
Right or wrong, That's why I sort headstamps.

With a progressive press that pulls on several cases at one time, I believe it tends to average out the differences in the brass and gives more uniform oals with mixed headstamps.

 

[ljnowell]

In the last three weeks I have taken 1k bulk purchased 380s and 1 k bulk purchased. 38 special brass and dumped it out of the boxes into my tumbler. Cleaned a few hours and dumped straight into the collator on my case feeder and loaded. The only issue I had was four 357 mag mixed in with the 38 special.

I do the same thing with all my brass, but I only load handgun.

 

[ljnowell]

Are you saying neck tension will not effect OAL? If that's true than I have truly lost my mind!! It can't be..From what I can tell, neck tension or at least brass make up is almost the sole factor in vary oal's in mixed headstamp brass..



If I have 20 WIN headstamp I can seat every one of those to 1.125..



If I then load up a group of federal, I can barely feel them compared and they inevitably seat to 1.115



PMC(very tight) will load up to 1.130-1.135..



It's the brass...

In my experience handgun reloading case tension has not affected my OAL. The biggest factor for me is inconsistent bullet ogive. That has been the factor in almost every case that a beginner has brought to me. The difference in height from my shell plate to my seating stem doesn't change with headstamp. I have yet to have a piece if handgun brass flex my press and change OAL.

 

[ljnowell]

Yep..On the RCBS carbide dies you can only screw it down so much due to the crimp feature..I don't use the crimped in the seating die..I have a separate Hornandy for that..

I am beginning to think that the press might be flexing with the stronger/thicker cases and not flexing with the thinner walled cases..in other words, if there was no flex at all on the stronger cases it would consistently seat to the lowest numbers that are showing up on the weak fedaral cases..Makes sense?

It could be the turret moving under load. Whether this is the case or not you are not going to notice the difference in the ammo when shooting it.

Only once have I ever had OAL length make a real difference in a handgun and it was when I shortened a cartridge OAL by .030". It raised pressure slightly and made a difference. .010" I doubt will make any difference at all.

 

[Twiki357]

“Harder/Tighter brass is flexing the turret up and causing seating at a higher OAL”

Just a thought, is the retaining nut on your turret tight?

ArchAngelCD
IMO you are obsessing over a perceived problem that really isn't a problem.

Agree. ^

The variances you’re hyperventilating over are insignificant in the grater scheme of things. If that variance is causing feeding problems it’s a different matter, but I don’t see that little varience being a problem.

 

[Atticus Flinch]

Plated billets are pretty soft. My guess is that the soft bullets don't perfectly fit your seating die and are being slightly distorted when seating pressure is applied. The cases with more neck tension cause more distortion which allows the bullets to more closely match the shape of the seater and thus fit a bit deeper into the seater.

I bet if you switched to the flat seater, you'd see this problem go away.

Or maybe try the "hot glue" custom seater.

 

[RN]

I am up and back at it..Going to do some test and take some pics..Thanks for everyone's suggestions as I really appreciate them all. This is why we come to groups like THR.. As for the couple folks (archangel & ?) who got all hot and bothered by my BS comment wel..Relax.. If you had been a part of this constructive conversation from the beginning you would understand that I was just playing..Chilll...

 

[RN]

I found this post below by a THR member that goes by the name "oldgoat3"... This is exactly my problem and what looks to be a solution..I'm going to just sort my brass and undersized the weak stuff for greater neck tension and consistant OAL...


"I reload on a Dillon SDB, 550 and a Lee Classic 4 hole turret. With all presses (and several die brands) I have experienced minor fluctuation in OAL. As mentioned in prior replies you can attribute the variation to, inconsistent stroke, shell plate flex when rounds not present in all stations and in my experiecne the biggest culprit is - the use of mixed brass.

It has been mentioned in many threads that all brass is not equal. 9mm brass like FC, PMC and Blazer typically have thinner walls than other brass such as Winchester and S&B. Resized thin wall brass doesn't grip the bullet as tightly as thicker wall brass. Thin wall brass allow the bullet to seat deeper resulting in shorter OAL using the same the same seating die setting. I am a bit OCD so I sort/load cases by head stamp to minimize variation.

NOTE * In the thin wall brass I actually have experienced bullet set back when I push the nose against my bench by hand. Since discovering this setback I now run all thin cases through a Lee U ("undersize") die to ensure proper neck tension. The "U-die" ompetely eliminates setback and achieves much more consistent OAL as well.

My suggestion is to sort your brass by head stamp, adjust seating depth and then see if your OAL variation doesn't improve. Test for setback. You may not need a Udie but the bench test will tell you.

Hope this helps"
OG03

 

[LiveLife]

I am using regular Lee carbide sizing die and my 40S&W loads exhibit sufficient neck tension to the point of no bullet setback even after multiple chambering from the magazine - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9639622#post9639622

QC step - Neck tension check:

I check for sufficient neck tension by measuring OAL before and after feeding/chambering the dummy rounds from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. After two chamberings, I did not measure any bullet setback so I rechambered five times. Guess what? No bullet setback! With many jacketed/plated bullets, I will experience some bullet setback after several chamberings but not with these bullets. Perhaps harder lead alloy (11-12 BHN) used as bullet core is not being squished to maintain greater neck tension? Out of curiosity, I chambered the 45ACP and 9mm rounds and I also did not measure bullet setback! This is really interesting and a very good thing if you have experienced neck tension/bullet setback issues.

I use mixed range brass with various headstamp and experience only slight OAL variation within a few thousandths.

I prefer not to overwork my brass if not necessary, especially for higher pressure 40S&W loads, as work hardening will increase "brass spring back" and may decrease neck tension and shorten brass life. You do not want bullet setback with 40S&W loads if using near max/max loads.

I can send you some resized mixed 40S&W brass. If you do not experience the same problem, then you can just use a regular Lee sizing die which will work the brass less than the undersized "U" die.

PM me if interested.

 

[ljnowell]

I am using regular Lee carbide sizing die and my 40S&W loads exhibit sufficient neck tension to the point of no bullet setback even after multiple chambering from the magazine - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9639622#post9639622

I use mixed range brass with various headstamp and experience only slight OAL variation within a few thousandths.

I prefer not to overwork my brass if not necessary, especially for higher pressure 40S&W loads, as work hardening will increase "brass spring back" and may decrease neck tension and shorten brass life. You do not want bullet setback with 40S&W loads if using near max/max loads.

I can send you some resized mixed 40S&W brass. If you do not experience the same problem, then you can just use a regular Lee sizing die which will work the brass less than the undersized "U" die.

PM me if interested.

I also use Lee standard dies for 40. I have a nice coke bottle effect with lead bullets. Lots of case tension !

 

[RN]

I find it very hard to imagin that that two brand new resizing dies(RCBS and Hornady Custom) will not size as well as a lee but it can't hurt giving it a shot BDS..Just to be clear...You will need to send mixed brass that has been causing me issues..WIN, S&B, Magtech, and some fedaral seat just fine..Thanks and PM sent..

BTW..This is the most helpful fourm out there.. You guys really take the time to help us newbies out..It's apprecated!!

 

[Blue68f100]

Make sure your tightening the dies with a wrench. If you just hand tightening under high loads it may be unloading and lifting the die. The reason for a longer length. This comes into play more when your trying to push the shoulder back on a rifle round vs pistol.

A Quick test: Those rounds (brass mfg) that have give you longer OAL, try using a dry lube like mica to see if the friction reduces and OAL comes back to the other brass.

Now if you ever measure factory ammo you will find that the OAL may vary as much as a 0.035" or more. 0.005"-0.010" is fairly normal on some presses. My AP press gives me <0.005" variation.

Another thing to consider if your using a liquid brass cleaning procedure your removing all lube from the brass. Seating and sizing will be harder due to lack of lubrication. Most just lube the outside and the inside neck is not touched. This can create a lot of friction which will give you a slightly different OAL. It's best to seat in one smooth motion. Trying to move a short distance requires more force to get the bullet moving again. So if your tweeking on dies the next one may be different if done in 1 stroke vs several small ones.

 

[Rule3]

See post #11 for another chart on the COL.brass situation.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9601900#post9601900


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=202288&d=1409702600

 

[CoalTrain49]

Are you checking the OAL after you seat or after you crimp. If not you should check after you seat and again after you crimp. I use range brass exclusively, I don't sort, and never found OAL to be significantly different after I seat. This is as it should be and the excellent dia above shows why. Your crimp may be the culprit. Do you have an adj crimp die? Might be something to look at. I have one and absolutely will not use anything else because bullets are different dia and brass is different lengths. BTJM.

 

[RN]

I have a separate crimp die and have been checking the lengths before I crimp. OAL is VERY consistant as long as it's the same headstamp and I could live with +/- .005 one way or the other. The problem for me is that the ones where OAL is .005 short can be setback via the bench test..That's just not going to cut it for me. I have a U die in route to see if that helps even things out..

 

[CoalTrain49]

Are you basing that tolerance on loads not chambering properly because of OAL? Is that the bench test you are referring to. Just curious as it has never been a problem for me when I check my ammo in my barrel. My problem with range brass has always been out of spec case dia at the base, probably due to unsupported chambers.

I'm a fairly new auto reloader so bare with me here.