Brass To Face, Glock and Others

[Jaywalker]

Thirty-five years ago or so I sold my last Colt 45 Auto - I got tired of Failure To Feed and Brass To Face (BTF). I went to the Browning HP and it's been an exceptional piece - I still have it. I've had no failures to feed or eject and empties will go into a coffee can off to my right on the fly. For carry, though, I prefer double-action-only. My Kahr eight-round K9 is great - slim, reliable and accurate - but I'd be happier with something a little lighter that carries a few more rounds.

To cover that, I'm now considering a Glock 19 Gen4, since it fits my hand better than previous versions. It appears to be about the size of my Browning HP, but lighter, cheaper, and more corrosion resistant. While researching the Glock Generation 4 model, however, I find there are significant numbers of credible stories from folks about Brass to the Face. While I'm sure it isn't every G19 Gen4 that does the BTF thing, it doesn't appear to be shooter-related or imaginary, and Glock doesn't seem to have a handle on preventing it yet.

Has anyone bought a Glock 19 Gen 4 and regretted it?

 

[beatledog7]

I have never experienced a semi-auto pistol or rifle that launches spent brass into anything resembling a neat little pile. Most of the time they spread it more or less evenly over a semicircle running from my forehead to directly downrange.

Short of a shield of some sort, exactly how would a gun maker be able to guarantee prevention of the occasional straight back ejection?

 

[Hangingrock]

I find there are significant numbers of credible stories from folks about Brass to the Face

May I ask what was the common contributing factor (root cause) in these credible stories that caused BTF?

 

[ku4hx]

We own two G19s, Gen3 and Gen4, and I don't regret either purchase. The Gen4 has proven itself to be comfortable to hold, pleasant to shoot and accurate.

My first semi auto was a BHP I bought new in 1970. Since then I (and my wife) have bought several more. The one thing I learned early on was not to expect any of them to ever plop the cases in a neat pile in any certain designated spot. They all eject spent cases with various trajectories and more often that not, "all over the place".

Our FN FNS-40 consistently drops empties all around my feed, our Rugers pitch them back over our right shoulder anywhere from 10 to 15 feet away. Others send them to various locations somewhere between around my feet and 15 feet away. They all will occasionally send one over my head, bounced against my shooting glasses and various other places. It's been like that for as long as I can remember. It's simply a non problem for us.

I don't worry about where the case goes just so long as it clears the gun and gets out of the way of the next round heading toward the chamber.

 

[HexHead]

It all has to do with the ammo and it's consistency. While developing a load for my Glock 17, I started at a minimum load, and worked up in 1/10 grain increments. I went from FTE to brass ejecting to the left, straight up, back at me and to the right as the powder increments increased. When I got reliable ejection to the right and with the accuracy I wanted, I was done. But I learned a very valuable lesson about ejection.

I read not too long ago about this guy that was reloading and was 7 rounds short to complete his session. He pulled apart seven rounds of WWB for the brass, and decided to weigh the powder out of curiosity. Out of just the seven rounds, he found 4/10 variance in the powder load. From my experience, that's certainly enough to cause erratic ejection and BTF, and it's not the gun's fault.

I've had Brownings, Berettas, Glocks, Colts, Kimbers, Springfields, S&Ws, Para and Nighthawk... and NEVER had one that didn't occasionally throw some brass where I didn't expect it, including back at my head.

Funny, people will spend hundreds of dollars on a pistol, and when it ejects erratically, they tend to blame the gun, not that they bought the cheapest ammo they could find for the range.

 

[Fiv3r]

The only gun I have ever had an issue with when it came to throwing brass was an old Chinese 9mm Tok Clone. I had two of them so I sold one to my buddy. The one I kept didn't eject in my face, but it would throw it up and out at such velocity that it could "bank shot" hot brass off the range stall walls and down the collar of my shirt all day long.

The one I sold to my buddy would LAUNCH brass in a near flat right trajectory. While shooting at an outdoor range with no stall partition's, he was able to jam MY gun up. Shot his round, flipped the brass so hard to the right that it bounced off the post to my RIGHT and fell back to the left INTO my gun as it cycled and caused a stove pipe The only way we KNEW this is what happened is because he was shooting brass cases and I was shooting steel Tula, and we were the only ones at the range. One in a billion shot, I'm sure.

Anyway, all of my autos throw brass away from me for the most part. None of them put it in a pile, but none of them throw it in my face. However, I generally shoot southpaw, so I'm used to seeing a little bit of extra whiz past my nose most of the time FNS, Glock, Ruger, all do about the same for me.

 

[MagnunJoe]

If you go to general glocking forum you will find about 100 threads about the generation 4 9mm failures and how much better the gen 3 are. My personal experience? I have both generations and the gen 3 has better -less erratic- ejections but nothing that will make me get rid of them. Some chin music is part of the charm.

 

[tarosean]

I read not too long ago about this guy that was reloading and was 7 rounds short to complete his session. He pulled apart seven rounds of WWB for the brass, and decided to weigh the powder out of curiosity. Out of just the seven rounds, he found 4/10 variance in the powder load. From my experience, that's certainly enough to cause erratic ejection and BTF, and it's not the gun's fault.

I've had Brownings, Berettas, Glocks, Colts, Kimbers, Springfields, S&Ws, Para and Nighthawk... and NEVER had one that didn't occasionally throw some brass where I didn't expect it, including back at my head.

Funny, people will spend hundreds of dollars on a pistol, and when it ejects erratically, they tend to blame the gun, not that they bought the cheapest ammo they could find for the range.

Funny how that same crappy ammo works in every other gun on the planet, with exception of late 3rd gen and gen4 9mmm Glocks..

I've never had BTF with any of mine. 2 gen3's 17 and 19 and a gen4 19. However, one is returning from glock as I type this because of failure to extract.. I would have welcomed brass to the face instead of the 15rnd single shot I bought...

 

[9mmepiphany]

While I'm sure it isn't every G19 Gen4 that does the BTF thing, it doesn't appear to be shooter-related or imaginary, and Glock doesn't seem to have a handle on preventing it yet.

Has anyone bought a Glock 19 Gen 4 and regretted it?

I've been through the trials and tribulations with 3 friends who are having the problem with both late-Gen3 and Gen4 G19s

One Gen 4 has been back to the factory a couple of times without a consistent remedy.

One Gen 3 has been replaced by the factory and its replacement has been back already for a re-occurrence of the problem

The problem isn't always immediate, both Gen3 and Gen4 guns had about 1k rounds through them before it started. The returned guns, after the factory fix, went about 500-700 rounds before it cropped up again.

Short of a shield of some sort, exactly how would a gun maker be able to guarantee prevention of the occasional straight back ejection?

The problem started with a redesign of the extractor and change of ejector. A return to the factory will usually result in a replacement ejector (different part number)

What seems to be the major problem was that a redesign of the extractor to ease the feeding of the cartridge rims under the extractor claw has a adverse effect on the extractors ability to control the cartridge as it is pulled out of the chamber. This uncontrolled case then hits the ejector at odd angles to make it's way out of the ejection port.

The fix that I have seen work on the Gen4 G19 has been an aftermarket extractor coupled with lowering the side of the ejection port.

An easy test of your extractor's purchase on the case rim is to shoot your gun with the magazine removed (after chambering a round)...it the case drops through the open mag well, your extractor isn't holding the case with enough tension

 

[Jaywalker]

ku4hx: My first semi auto was a BHP I bought new in 1970. Since then I (and my wife) have bought several more. The one thing I learned early on was not to expect any of them to ever plop the cases in a neat pile in any certain designated spot. They all eject spent cases with various trajectories and more often that not, "all over the place".

Hmm. All these years I assumed that with the external, spring steel extractor, the Browning was automatically more ejection-consistent than other marques; it surprises me that it isn't. Well, the "all of them in a coffee can" may be a slight exaggeration, but they are all in a neat little area and I typically find all of the cases to take home. It has never hit me in the face with ejection brass, a thing that caused me a pretty good case of flinch with the Colt 45s.

Personally, while I don't have a problem with MIM parts in other functions, I do have a problem with them as extractors - possibly they just aren't "springy" enough. The fact that Apex (and possibly) others are making replacement Glock extractors gives me enough confidence to actually order a Glock in the face (ha!) of all these stories.

I don't think I'll be willing to relieve the ejection port, though, and lose the benefit of the nitriding-hardened surface, which is part of the reason I'm buying it.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I have a late gen 3 19 that tossed brass to my face and everywhere else too. I had to send it back to glock twice before they fixed it. They replaced the extractor and ejector (30274). So far so good.

My nephew bought a 30s and right off the bat he got brass to the face and the look on his face was textbook. I have never had a pistol other than glock do that.

 

[tommy.duncan]

My first 1911 70 series would put every other case right down the front of my shirt!! I tried to explain to my first wife why I had all these burn blisters on my chest. I found the recoil spring was over too strong and clipped the cases. After I fixed that it was an awesome pistol.

 

[Schofield3]

tarosean,

just had to say I enjoyed your post quite a bit!

 

[ku4hx]

Hmm. All these years I assumed that with the external, spring steel extractor, the Browning was automatically more ejection-consistent than other marques ..

That's why I said "more often than not" to allow for exceptions. Very few things, with few exceptions, are absolutes.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

I have a new model Gen 3 Glock 17 and it works great be is one of the worst ejecting guns I have ever owned by comparison the super cheap hi point c9 I owned ejected circled around this thing.

But I would probably still buy the gun again as I never intended to carry this one and I think a replacement with a Apex extractor would cure the problem. Like the OP I was used to my CZ which throws brass in a nice pile. The tension put on the case from the stock extractor is so little that if you blow hard enough you can knock it out. I reload and have been able to help the problem with hotter ammo, My theory is that the hotter ammo moves the slide faster sticking the case to the extractor just a little better. You could send it back to glock and have the replace one crap part for another but I think you be better off just adding 60/80 bucks to the purchase price of your gun and getting the Apex.

 

[chriscw81]

i recently picked up a new gen 4 G27. i've put about 300-350 rounds in it and i've also had erratic ejections. i've had about 7 or 8 BTF's and many more land on my head and shoulders. There are folks all over the gun forums compaining about this problem. i'd hate to send mine back and be without it for quite some time. a lot of folks have said that replacing the extractor fixed the problem and that may be what i do. There are also a lot of folks online replying to peoples complaint saying they must be limp wristing the gun and i say that's BS. if i have the same problem the next time i take mine to the range i'll likely replace the extractor.

 

[MikeJackmin]

I consider the brass-to-face problem a serious defect in any pistol that might be intended for defensive use. Unless you usually wear glasses, you'll be shooting that gun with unprotected eyes. Having the brass coming back into your face is not only distracting, it's downright hazardous.

Usually it's an extractor issue, sometimes an ejector issue. Sometimes it can be fixed with a good cleaning, or with a new extractor spring, or by switching brands of ammo. Other times it requires a trip to the 'smith. I've never known of a gun that could not be cured of this problem once a good gunsmith got a hold of it.

 

[Jaywalker]

MikeJackmin: I consider the brass-to-face problem a serious defect in any pistol that might be intended for defensive use. Unless you usually wear glasses, you'll be shooting that gun with unprotected eyes. Having the brass coming back into your face is not only distracting, it's downright hazardous.

Usually it's an extractor issue, sometimes an ejector issue. Sometimes it can be fixed with a good cleaning, or with a new extractor spring, or by switching brands of ammo. Other times it requires a trip to the 'smith. I've never known of a gun that could not be cured of this problem once a good gunsmith got a hold of it.

You've covered a lot of ground, there. I also consider BTF to be serious and not to be passed off as minor as many appear to do.

I'm not entirely certain I want to spend what a good smith charges to make a $600 pistol simply operate, though. Randy Lee of Apex put together a good analysis of the issue on another forum, and 9mmepiphany captured many of the issues Lee discussed - his aftermarket extractor and lowering the side of the ejection port, which will void any warranty. IMO, when you have to void warranty to make something function, there's a design error.

As most G19 Gen4 pistols work properly, I decided to take a chance and ordered one yesterday. It gets one chance - if it begins to perform BTF antics, I'll send it back to Glock for repair. I'll then sell it without firing it. I really do have better things to do than fix pistol malfs. Maybe then I'll buy some more revolvers - we're apparently back to the days of "six for sure," sadly.

 

[WinThePennant]

The Apex extractor will forever get rid of BTF problems. I hear Lone Wolf's 9mm extractor will do the same thing, but it's never in stock.

 

[Jaywalker]

Win, the designer of the Apex extractor says the Glock needs the ejection port lowered...

 

[Outlaw Man]

My Sig sometimes has a tendency to hit me right on top of the head. I normally pad my head with a hat.

I saw a second generation Glock 23 that would drop the brass in the neatest straight line you've ever seen. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it.

I haven't been around that many 3rd and 4th generation Glocks, so I don't know if my lack of seeing the problem is just due to my low sample rate. Did they really change the action mechanism that much from the older ones? I thought they were mostly cosmetic/ergonomic changes.

 

[walt501]

I purchased my first Glock 30 in 2001 and I've purchased several more over the years, all Gen 3 pistols. Not one has ever sent brass into my face over thousands of rounds fired.

This past January I purchased my first Gen 4, a Glock 21. After cleaning and lubricating it I headed to the range and brought along my original Glock 30 and Glock 36 for comparison. Ammunition used was WWB for all three pistols. At 10 yards, my Glock 30 is extremely accurate, my Glock 36 less so but still a very accurate firearm. My Gen 4 Glock 21 was fired ten times, with brass hitting my face four times. That wouldn't be so bad, and Glock has agreed to fix the ejection issue, but the real issue is the accuracy. At 10 yards the Glock 21 delivered a 4" to 5" group - much worse than any Glock I have ever fired. It has been sitting in it's case untouched since then and I guess I'm just going to sell it rather than try and work out the problems.

The saddest part for me is that after 12 years owning and enjoying several Glock pistols I now no longer wish to purchase another Glock. Perhaps I'll look at them again......when the Gen 5 pistols are released.

 

[Texan Scott]

My one and only Glock (gen1 m22 40cal) spit brass like a popcorn popper... EVERYWHERE. Part of this was (I think) a tendency to spit VERTICALLY, so that 6-12 inches horizontally in any direction was more noticeable. If most of its ejection energy had been along a more horizontal vector, it would've been a non-issue. Personally, I agree with the notion that the root cause of any perceived problem is the high lower lip of the ejection port. Lower and flare that a bit, see what that does for you... or do what I did.

I went back to carrying snubby .38s.

 

[Jaywalker]

Outlaw Man, don't take me at my word, as I've never owned a Glock, but I understand there are significant changes. Randy lee of Apex had to develop two extractors, first for the Gen 4, then later for the Gen 3 models.

When ordering my Glock yesterday, I was told Glock is shipping 4,000 per day to meet the backlog. i suspect when the backlog disappears they'll get serious about fixing problems.

 

[Outlaw Man]

Interesting.

Yeah, I suspect since it's more of a concern for some people than a genuine safety problem (though that could probably be argued), they're going to focus on meeting demands.