I would bet that if you had it built into a closet, where only the 1/2" steel plate door was exposed, even power tools would take awhile. I'm thinking of re-locating my BF AMSEC so only the front is exposed. That would probably upgrade it's RSC rating to a TL15 rating.
Breaking into a gun safe - UL testing
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I would bet that if you had it built into a closet, where only the 1/2" steel plate door was exposed, even power tools would take awhile. I'm thinking of re-locating my BF AMSEC so only the front is exposed. That would probably upgrade it's RSC rating to a TL15 rating.
Shadow 7D
Member
Um, depends on safe, a proper safe would be no weaker there than the door.
armoredman
Member
Also looking at a Fort Knox Defender, anyone have any info on them? Not gonna restrict myself to one choice until the cash flows out. 
Armoredman,
In 2009 I had the Fort Knox Defender in the three final choices of a gun safe to buy.
The other two was the Sturdy and Amsec BF.
What I like tremendously about Fort Knox is they will upgrade the safe for you in various packages.
They offered at no charge to put outside hinges on it and since I wont own a safe without this feature they were put in the running.
I had the choice of upgrading the standard 10 gauge outer body to a 3/16th or 7 gauge if you want to call it that.
Along with that body upgrade was a door upgrade of their standard 10 gauge door face skin but the inner plate would grow from 1/4 inch to 3/8ths plate.
Mo' better!!
That upgrade at that time was $300.00,which I did not consider bad at all.
I also could have opted to also have a 10 gauge inner liner put in as well for another $300.00.
Climbing in price now for sure.
Or I could have settled on the standard 10 gauge body and added another 10 gauge inner steel liner.
Today Knox will even offer you a 1/4 inch body upgrade if you want.
Far mo' better!!
That's what I like the most about knox safes as well as a really nice fit and finish with very nice paint jobs.
Alas in 2009 the 66x37 Knox Defender in Rimrock textured paint with the 3/16ths body upgrade and door upgrade was going to cost me $2800.00.
Not mo' better.
The Amsec BF 66x36 in Sandstone textured paint that I was very confident would offer better fire protection and every bit as good of burglary protection was priced at $2299.00 with zero charge for shipping.
The last contender to make the cut was the Sturdy with a fireliner of similiar size.
It's a good safe to be sure and has a near rabid cult of followers singing their song but since they have no dealer network and it's price was within $100.00 of the Amsec and the jury is still out on the effectiveness of that fireliner (in my opinion) and the fact that I was not plunking down that kind of money sight unseen I chose the Amsec as the best bang for the buck.
YMMV.
In 2009 I had the Fort Knox Defender in the three final choices of a gun safe to buy.
The other two was the Sturdy and Amsec BF.
What I like tremendously about Fort Knox is they will upgrade the safe for you in various packages.
They offered at no charge to put outside hinges on it and since I wont own a safe without this feature they were put in the running.
I had the choice of upgrading the standard 10 gauge outer body to a 3/16th or 7 gauge if you want to call it that.
Along with that body upgrade was a door upgrade of their standard 10 gauge door face skin but the inner plate would grow from 1/4 inch to 3/8ths plate.
Mo' better!!
That upgrade at that time was $300.00,which I did not consider bad at all.
I also could have opted to also have a 10 gauge inner liner put in as well for another $300.00.
Climbing in price now for sure.
Or I could have settled on the standard 10 gauge body and added another 10 gauge inner steel liner.
Today Knox will even offer you a 1/4 inch body upgrade if you want.
Far mo' better!!
That's what I like the most about knox safes as well as a really nice fit and finish with very nice paint jobs.
Alas in 2009 the 66x37 Knox Defender in Rimrock textured paint with the 3/16ths body upgrade and door upgrade was going to cost me $2800.00.
Not mo' better.
The Amsec BF 66x36 in Sandstone textured paint that I was very confident would offer better fire protection and every bit as good of burglary protection was priced at $2299.00 with zero charge for shipping.
The last contender to make the cut was the Sturdy with a fireliner of similiar size.
It's a good safe to be sure and has a near rabid cult of followers singing their song but since they have no dealer network and it's price was within $100.00 of the Amsec and the jury is still out on the effectiveness of that fireliner (in my opinion) and the fact that I was not plunking down that kind of money sight unseen I chose the Amsec as the best bang for the buck.
YMMV.
You would have to dissect the entire door frame off to get into the safe. Basically you'd have to get the door completely off to have full access to the inside.
I've always thought it was odd that people want to cut a hole in the side, top, bottom, etc. It would have to be a huge hole to access the contents, unless you have a really long arm.
dprice3844444
member
just rememberto have the dealer put"fireproof safe for storage of income tax records" on the bill,not gunsafe.it then becomes tax deductible
a1abdj
Member
This is a good way to get yourself in trouble.
Ghost Tracker
Member
There are no "good" ways to get myself in trouble. If it results in trouble, it was a "bad" way.
Just like firearms, a good-quality safe costs a premium price. Theoretical scenarios of highly-skilled thieves cracking your safe is a fun exercise, but remember that a smart, serious, professional felon possessing that level of skill it likely to exercise his trade and risk his health & freedom on more rewarding target than your private accumulation of firearms. Say your collection is worth ~$30,000 = fenced price ~$5000. His cut? maybe $1000-$1500. If he's good enough to get past a "good" safe (IMHO) he'll go after softer, more profitable targets. Bubba with a cutting torch & a sledge hammer might show-up, but not Clooney & the Ocean's Crew.
armoredman
Member
Any safe cracker worth his salt wouldn't be operating in this .5 horse town anyway.
Thanks for the run down, heeler, I appreciate it. That's about the same price I was looking at for the Defender. The nice thing is the dealer will deliver unobtrusively and set up, too. No drop ship to the curb in a box that screams, "THIS HOUSE HAS SOMETHING WORTH STEALING!" until I can borrow a dolly strong enough to move it.
Thanks for the run down, heeler, I appreciate it.
That's about the same price I was looking at for the Defender. The nice thing is the dealer will deliver unobtrusively and set up, too. No drop ship to the curb in a box that screams, "THIS HOUSE HAS SOMETHING WORTH STEALING!" until I can borrow a dolly strong enough to move it.My point was that placing the BF in between concrete walls, while certainly a good idea, doesn't really make it equivillant to a T-15 as was mentioned. While the 1/2 inch door plate is great, the surrounding frame is still very vulnerable to tools and, I beleive, could be easily chopped up with the right power saw, totally bypassing the plate door.
True Elesser but he specifically stated in post #26 "where only the 1/2 inch plate steel door was exposed".
Thing is since practically all gun safes bought are used for in home use the majority of gun safes that get breached are by a prying attack.
It's obvious to most of us that power tools are going to win out but in a residential burglary where your home is just hit because,well,it's just your bad luck,and the thief does not even know you own a safe it's highly unlikely he's carrying sawzalls,grinders,16 pound sledgehammers,5 foot pry bars and the such.
It just does not happen like that.
Thing is since practically all gun safes bought are used for in home use the majority of gun safes that get breached are by a prying attack.
It's obvious to most of us that power tools are going to win out but in a residential burglary where your home is just hit because,well,it's just your bad luck,and the thief does not even know you own a safe it's highly unlikely he's carrying sawzalls,grinders,16 pound sledgehammers,5 foot pry bars and the such.
It just does not happen like that.
Yes, yes. we are in agreement. I wasn't commenting on any of that more general stuff, just commenting in response to the prior poster that said
"I'm thinking of re-locating my BF AMSEC so only the front is exposed. That would probably upgrade it's RSC rating to a TL15 rating. "
I've got an AMSEC BF on my short list for a near future purchase so I guess I have the various pros and cons in the forefront of my mind.
By the way, I actually spoke to the Rep at SHOT a couple weeks ago. Can anyone confirm the following about the AMSEC BFs?
I was told:
-12 guage outer skin
-stitch welded body
-fill has NO security features, fire only.
This was all direct from the company rep on the show floor.
"I'm thinking of re-locating my BF AMSEC so only the front is exposed. That would probably upgrade it's RSC rating to a TL15 rating. "
I've got an AMSEC BF on my short list for a near future purchase so I guess I have the various pros and cons in the forefront of my mind.
By the way, I actually spoke to the Rep at SHOT a couple weeks ago. Can anyone confirm the following about the AMSEC BFs?
I was told:
-12 guage outer skin
-stitch welded body
-fill has NO security features, fire only.
This was all direct from the company rep on the show floor.
billdeserthills
Member
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As a locksmith who has opened many safes I can tell you that most steel is very easy to drill into, the barrier material is tougher. Protecting a safe is all about time, and it will take longer for me to keep switching cutting tools in order to get through tough barrier mateials than it does if I am using just a standard drill bit & a hardplate drill bit, which is normally what I hafta do when drilling a modern steel safe. I have a couple of the Amsec BF series safes myself, they seem plenty good & heavy too.
billdeserthills
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Being that the BF series is rated for Burglary & Fire why do you think barrier material would be inside? BTW the BF series also does have a 5 1/4" thick door with a 1/2" thick steel plate in front of the door & the standard piece of hardplate protecting the lock. The TL ratings are not a joke, you will pay dearly to get a safe with a TL rating & then you will get to move a safe that can weigh thousands of pounds more than a BF series does.
billdeserthills
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I must say, you don't sound like someone who has ever used a drill with a sharp bit.
It really doesn't take long to drill through a 1/2" of mild steel which is what you'll find on the outside of a safe. Drilling through the hard plate which is located under the soft steel will be more of a problem and will take longer, even though it is a much thinner piece of steel.
Dont know who told you that but I believe that information is wrong Ellessar.
Older BF'S had 10 gauge outer bodies with a 14 gauge inner liner.
Somewhere along the way they were made with 11 gauge bodies with 16 gauge inner liners.
Never heard they were stich welded.
Another issue is if they were stich welded they would do quite poorly in a fire.
Perhaps the inner liner may be stich welded but I dont truely know.
Have you looked and felt the Drylight material at an Amsec dealer?
Appears to be pretty hard stuff.
I would think it would help somewhat as a security helper sandwiched between two steel walls.
Certainly better than sheetrock or some sort of wool blanket.
Older BF'S had 10 gauge outer bodies with a 14 gauge inner liner.
Somewhere along the way they were made with 11 gauge bodies with 16 gauge inner liners.
Never heard they were stich welded.
Another issue is if they were stich welded they would do quite poorly in a fire.
Perhaps the inner liner may be stich welded but I dont truely know.
Have you looked and felt the Drylight material at an Amsec dealer?
Appears to be pretty hard stuff.
I would think it would help somewhat as a security helper sandwiched between two steel walls.
Certainly better than sheetrock or some sort of wool blanket.
Fella's;
Those of you who do want a real safe should look at the Graffunder line. And yes, I'm a dealer. They are heavy X expensive, but you do get what you pay for. The website is: www.graffundersafes.com.
900F
Those of you who do want a real safe should look at the Graffunder line. And yes, I'm a dealer. They are heavy X expensive, but you do get what you pay for. The website is: www.graffundersafes.com.
900F
Would love to. However, I'm not sure my wife would ever let me spend that much on my gun collection, much less a safe to store it in.
Actually, I worked as a journey level machinist for years, and can hand sharpen a drill bit that will go through steel like butter. What's your point? Are you thinking you can drill a bunch of holes all over the 1/2" steel plate door on an AMSEC and get in?
leadcounsel
member
I'm more worried about the man with the 12 gauge that breaks in and lays in wait for the home owner to return from work with the safe combonation... Seems to me to be the best way to crack into a safe...
Shrock
Member
Well this in interesting/entertaining. Video of actual thieves breaking into a safe. Not sure what it's made of, but I'm sure it is fairly tough since it's a commercial high-risk location. 6 minutes / 2 safes, so a long way from TL-15 though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7tU2W4RsEc&feature=related
About drilling, typical thieves dont use drills, Locksmiths do. Getting into a safe with a drill and without activating relockers requires skill and knowledge. Most thieves have neither and will go for making a hole in it or prying/cutting it open vs. "cracking" it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7tU2W4RsEc&feature=related
About drilling, typical thieves dont use drills, Locksmiths do. Getting into a safe with a drill and without activating relockers requires skill and knowledge. Most thieves have neither and will go for making a hole in it or prying/cutting it open vs. "cracking" it.
billdeserthills
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I open safes & I like to do it with just the one hole through the door, goes faster that way
So what does it take to drill a hole through a composite safe? I have an AMSEC CF5524 composite safe (I bought it used), and I've heard they are really hard to drill through.
I want to put a goldenrod in it but it doesn't have a hole for the wires. Same thing with bolting it down, I'd like to drill some 5/8" holes to bolt it to the floor. The fact that it was brought in on a pallet jack means it can be brought out with a pallet jack. And of course to top it off (which is why I still worry about it) it is in the garage, which has most tools available including an acetylene torch, because it is too heavy for the floors in my home. Any recommendations?
I want to put a goldenrod in it but it doesn't have a hole for the wires. Same thing with bolting it down, I'd like to drill some 5/8" holes to bolt it to the floor. The fact that it was brought in on a pallet jack means it can be brought out with a pallet jack. And of course to top it off (which is why I still worry about it) it is in the garage, which has most tools available including an acetylene torch, because it is too heavy for the floors in my home. Any recommendations?
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