Breaking: We May Get a Perp Walk Yet In the CIA Leak

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Perjury's no big deal right?

After all Clinton did it.

And there is no evidence Libby outed Plame.

Her husband had already done that.

1. Perjury *is* a big deal.
2. Clinton did it, was impeached for it and acquitted. Fitz isn't charged with recommending congressional action, but rather legal action.
3. There seems to be *some* evidence that Libby outed Plame (allegedly), but that isn't why he was charged. He was charged with perjury and obstruction, not the outing of a CIA operative.
4. I have no answer for the last assertion. According to Fitzpatrick, she was covert. Go read the transcript from his press conference yesterday. You can probably find it in google, "Fitzpatrick News Conference 10/28/05"

 

[LAR-15]

Apparently her husband had told their friends she worked for the CIA.

At the time of the 'leak' she WAS NOT covert.

She worked at Langley.

And yes perjury is a big deal- NO MATTER WHO DOES IT.

Peace

 

[cropcirclewalker]

You'd think that with Martha Stewart and all we would learn our lesson.

Anybody who talks to a federal grand jury and says anything other than, "Without blanket immunity, I assert my 5th amendment right to remain silent." is a blithering idiot.

It follows that anybody who would work for fed.gov and thus be forced to talk to any fed.gov agent in just even an informal situation is a blithering idiot.

It further follows (as Martha learned) that anybody that would even talk to a fed.gov agent in so much as a social context is a blithering idiot.

Like we used to say back in the good ol'e USN, "you fork with the Bull you will get the horn."

The managed media got Klinton off for perjury. Maybe if Scooter does the time, the rest of the blithering idiots that work for fed.gov will get the picture and get the heck outa .gov.

Thus, I hope he does the max.

Max, I hope he does the max.

 

[javafiend]

Apparently her husband had told their friends she worked for the CIA

Can you prove this assertion?

 

[Desertdog]

Apparently her husband had told their friends she worked for the CIA

I don't know if this is an established fact, but it has been established that Ms Plame walked through the front door of the CIA office building, where she worked, for several years.

That, to me, is not how a covert operator should operate.

 

[LAR-15]

I don't know if this is an established fact, but it has been established that Ms Plame walked through the front door of the CIA office building, where she worked, for several years.

That, to me, is not how a covert operator should operate.

She was not covert when her identity went into press.

That is an established fact even Joe Wilson admits.

 

[Don of Kalifornia]

An additional way to tell if someone is covert, is how their paycheck is written. If paid from the CIA, including W-2 forms your not covert. Coverts are paid through both shadow companies, or even real companies, that have a global presence

 

[MarkDido]

1. Perjury *is* a big deal.
2. Clinton did it, was impeached for it and acquitted. Fitz isn't charged with recommending congressional action, but rather legal action.
3. There seems to be *some* evidence that Libby outed Plame (allegedly), but that isn't why he was charged. He was charged with perjury and obstruction, not the outing of a CIA operative.
4. I have no answer for the last assertion. According to Fitzpatrick, she was covert. Go read the transcript from his press conference yesterday. You can probably find it in google, "Fitzpatrick News Conference 10/28/05"

Damn right there should be indictments of ANYONE who discloses the name of a covert agent:

Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:48 p.m. EDT
John Kerry Outed Undercover CIA Agent

Sen. John Kerry, who called for Karl Rove to be fired over allegations that he revealed the identity of CIA employee Valerie Plame, outed a genuine undercover CIA agent just this past April - even after the agency asked that his identity be kept secret.

Kerry blew the cover of CIA secret operative Fulton Armstrong during confirmation hearings for U.N. ambassador nominee John Bolton.

Questioning Bolton, Kerry asked: "Did Otto Reich share his belief that Fulton Armstrong should be removed for his position?" - according to a transcript excerpted by the New York Times.
"The answer is yes," the top Democrat continued.

In his response to Kerry, Mr. Bolton did his best to maintain the agent's confidentiality, reverting to Armstrong's pseudonym.

"As I said," he told Kerry, "I had lost confidence in Mr. Smith, and I conveyed that."

Two years earlier, Armstrong had been identified in news reports on his dispute with other officials over intelligence involving Cuba. But he was operating in a different capacity and his identity wasn't secret at the time.

"When the Bolton nomination resurrected the old accounts, however, the C.I.A. asked news organizations to withhold his name," the Times said.

Apparently the CIA directive wasn't good enough for Sen. Kerry - who outed Armstrong anyway and later defended the move by saying his Republican colleague, Senator Richard Lugar, had also mentioned the name.

And besides, said Kerry, the secret agent's name "had already been in the press."


So can I expect to see you jumping on the "Indict John Kerry Bandwagon?"

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Apparently the CIA directive wasn't good enough for Sen. Kerry - who outed Armstrong anyway and later defended the move by saying his Republican colleague, Senator Richard Lugar, had also mentioned the name.

And besides, said Kerry, the secret agent's name "had already been in the press."

So can I expect to see you jumping on the "Indict John Kerry Bandwagon?"

I *was* already ON the bandwagon. Nice to meetcha. Take a seat. I think we are alone here. I read the article on Drudge and was very very angry. I don't like Kerry and never have. Having a "D" by your name doesn't give someone a pass in my book.

The CIA apparently declined to refer this case to the justice department for investigation (a process they do about 50 times a year according to FNC). It seems that the guy *WAS* out to everyone who cared to look, appearing on flyers by name and title at conferences and such as early as January that same year. He was even on the Senate hearings list by name, depite the CIA asking that he not be named in the hearings.

Furthermore, Dick Lugar said his name about 10 mins earlier. Shouldn't we be going after Dick as well? I thought so, and my letter to the AG stated so.

As the prosecutor said:
"You also might wonder whether or not the pitcher just let go of the ball or his foot slipped, and he had no idea to throw the ball anywhere near the batter's head."
source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html

I think in Kerry/Lugar's case the ball slipped, and the batter wasn't all that hot to begin with. The fans didn't scream (except you, me and Drudge) and the league just ignored the foul, giving then guy a walk.

 

[orionengnr]

perjury

...is a big deal. No matter who the perjurer is.

The rules have to be the same for everyone, top to bottom.

Period. End of story.

Witch-hunting, likewise, is BS, regardless of who the hunters are. Stop the madness. DO YOUR JOB--Govern the friggin' country, solve the problems, quit wasting time, resources (and political capital) draggin' and dredgin'.

Plenty of things are worth the full and concerted effort of our government. Get to it. Now.

 

[GoRon]

perjury
...is a big deal. No matter who the perjurer is.

Agreed, if perjury is proved then he should be punished.

So far this is still much ado about nothing. He hands over his notes and testifies contrary to what he had written in them. Either he is a candidate for the dumb criminal award or he just didn't remember.

So far all I see is another overzealous special prosecuter ala Ken Starr. You have to find something to justify what you have been doing with all that taxpayer money for years.

 

[GunGoBoom]

I don't understand why there's not a flurry of activity in posting either on this thread or in a new thread - did I misundertand the talking head on my tee-vee, or did she say that scooter was INDICTED!?! (I was hunting all weekend but heard this this morning).

So far this is still much ado about nothing.

If he's been INDICTED, I'd doubt either him, his lawyer, his family, or his enemies view it as much ado about nothing.

As per usual, I am very

 

[roo_ster]

Martha Stewart & Scooter Libby & Fal

I'll give the normal disclaimer about perjury, kicking puppies, and shoving old ladies being bad...

That said...

I doubt I'd talk to any federal agent, lawyer present or no. Same goes with grand juries. "No blanket imunity? No testimony other than, 'I plead the 5th.'"

Tell the federales things happened this way but someone the federales prefer say it happened that way...hello FSA charges. Talking with the federales places one in serious jeapordy.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001001----000-.html

§ 1001. Statements or entries generally
Release date: 2005-08-03

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b) Subsection (a) does not apply to a party to a judicial proceeding, or that party’s counsel, for statements, representations, writings or documents submitted by such party or counsel to a judge or magistrate in that proceeding.
(c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to—
(1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or
(2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate.

 

[GoRon]

If he's been INDICTED, I'd doubt either him, his lawyer, his family, or his enemies view it as much ado about nothing.

Nobody has been indicted on the original purpose for the prosecutor.

There was no leak of the name of a covert CIA officer.

It was a special prosecutor witch hunt. Nobody has been found guilty yet so we don't even know if "Scooter" did anything.

What the lefties and the media have been saying is a far cry from what has happened.

 

[mercedesrules]

I hope that all spys are "outed", but...

...Plame/Wilson had been a spy for 18 years. She had made many overseas contacts and no one but her husband (and bosses) knew about it until the outing. Now, anyone that is discovered to have met with her over that entire time period is in deep s**t. Her career is over.

 

[DRZinn]

no one but her husband (and bosses) knew about it until the outing.

Demonstrably false.

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Nobody has been indicted on the original purpose for the prosecutor.

Correct. Those indictments may still happen, but its not very probable, according to most of the stuff I have read. I think that for whatever reason, we are seeing the last of the indictments on this. My *personal* hunch is that we have an "accidental foul" that hit the batter in the head (keeping with Fitzpatricks analogy).

There was no leak of the name of a covert CIA officer.
It was a special prosecutor witch hunt. Nobody has been found guilty yet so we don't even know if "Scooter" did anything.

That is what the Mr. Fitzpatrick is trying to determine: Did someone leak the name of a covert CIA officer. What Mr. Libby appears to have done (allegedly) is impede that investigation and perjor himself. Lesson: If you MUST appear before a grand jury and give testimony, it might be a good idea to keep your facts straight, and give them a consistent line, regardless of the factual nature of said line.

As for a "Witch Hunt"...well...I don't think the CIA feels the same way. These investigations aren't automatic. The CIA has to request them, and they did so in this case, as they do for 50 odd cases a year. I am willing to grant the special prosecutor the tools, time and money to investigate such accusations. 700000 so far. About the cost of a house in Silicon Valley.

What the lefties and the media have been saying is a far cry from what has happened.

First of all, *why* are you listening to the lefties? Its clear that you consider them to be a biased source...thus the term Lefties. Stick with trusted news sources.

Secondly, please illuminate *us* as to what happened, since you seem to be so close to the inside scoop here. I am quite curious to hear your recount of Libby's notes on the matter. What *DID* they FBI ask Plame's neighbors that day?

Lastly, please explain to me how a Republican administration appoints a special prosecutor to investigate a Republican administration in a time of Republican contol of both houses of Congress and just how that becomes a "witch hunt"?

This SOUNDS like you are defending perjury in addition to condoning spilling the beans on a covert agent, but I refuse to believe such things could come out of the mouth of any patriot. This killed people...foreign nationals that were feeding us information for OUR intelligence.

I am sincerely hoping that I am misreading your comments.

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Demonstrably false.

I'll show your mine if your show me yours. Me first!

From the press conference Friday:

Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community.

Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life.

The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well- known, for her protection or for the benefit of all us. It's important that a CIA officer's identity be protected, that it be protected not just for the officer, but for the nation's security.

Source:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html

 

[GoRon]

Secondly, please illuminate *us* as to what happened, since you seem to be so close to the inside scoop here. I am quite curious to hear your recount of Libby's notes on the matter.

If a leak of a covert agent occured then someone would be under indictment for outing her. This did not happen, no inside info, just filtering all the BS and looking at who and what the charges are.

Lastly, please explain to me how a Republican administration appoints a special prosecutor to investigate a Republican administration in a time of Republican contol of both houses of Congress and just how that becomes a "witch hunt"?

It seems that every high profile case being pursued by special/independent prosecutors has turned into a witch hunt irregardless of who is in power.

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

If a leak of a covert agent occured then someone would be under indictment for outing her. This did not happen, no inside info, just filtering all the BS and looking at who and what the charges are.

Ok...I'll filter the BS:
Libby got caught (alegedly) in a lie. Several actually, several times to several different people. (again, alegedly) I really don't wanna believe that someone would be that stupid, but I have been wrong before.

What you SEEM to be saying is that it's ok to (alegedly) lie to a prosecutor, the fbi and a grand jury?

I have said it before and I will say it again:

It is a crime to lie to law enforcement. *IF* you are:
1. stupid enough to NEED to lie to LE.
2. stupid enough to actually do it
3. stupid enough to be caught
Then yas take yas chances.

It seems that every high profile case being pursued by special/independent prosecutors has turned into a witch hunt irregardless of who is in power.

I am afraid we disagree. Some of the cases *have* been fruitful. Mcdougall broke the law was caught. Espy broke the law and was caught, Watergate was a successful special prosecution. "We do not bargain with Terrorists"--remember THAT line and the resulting Iran/Contra hearings when we armed Osama's friends?

On that note, but seems to be the downfall isn't the crimes themselves, but often the attempt to cover up the crime.

Personally, I refuse to feel sorry for someone who got caught (alegedly) lying. Period. I didn't feel sorry for Clinton, and I am not going to feel sorry for this (alleged) bonehead.

 

[GoRon]

Post #61

Quote:
perjury
...is a big deal. No matter who the perjurer is.

Agreed, if perjury is proved then he should be punished.

So far this is still much ado about nothing. He hands over his notes and testifies contrary to what he had written in them. Either he is a candidate for the dumb criminal award or he just didn't remember.

If he committed perjory then he should be punished, I already stipulated that.

The whole ordeal was based on a crime wich apparently didn't happen is all I am saying.

 

[DRZinn]

I'll show your mine if your show me yours. Me first!

Oh, I was hoping you wouldn't call me on that. Fact is I don't have the time to track it down, so I'll retract the statement unless some other kind soul helps out by finding the information.

Still, using Fitzgerald as your source is a bit shady. He's not biased, or anything.

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

Oh, I was hoping you wouldn't call me on that. Fact is I don't have the time to track it down, so I'll retract the statement unless some other kind soul helps out by finding the information.

Fair nuff.

Still, using Fitzgerald as your source is a bit shady. He's not biased, or anything.

That is kinda my whole point: Bias. Or course a prosecutor is biased. They are there to look for wrongdoing, and will be predisposed to find some where it might not be the case. They will also be suspicious of the whole situation.

Having said that, however, there isn't anyone else out there that has a *better* or more credible opinion. Certainly not one grounded in fact.

Mr. Fitzpatrick was tasked to find out what happened, and proffer charges if necessary. Not all things are crimes, but his *job* is to find out if a crime was comitted and bring those crimes to light. He has spent just shy of 2 years doing just that in conjuction with the FBI.

I am heavily disposed to consider his findings in a better light than those of some yahoo on Limbaugh, Drudge or NPR.

 

[mercedesrules]

Oh, I was hoping you wouldn't call me on that. Fact is I don't have the time to track it down, so I'll retract the statement unless some other kind soul helps out by finding the information....

TROLL!

 

[DRZinn]

You're kidding, right?

DocZinn
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