Opinions on Scooter Libby's Sentence being Commuted
- Thread starter Riktoven
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Looks like Bush hasn't ruled out a pardon:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6266766.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6266766.stm
ConfuseUs
Member
I would say that Libby was prosecuted as a justification after the fact for a long, expensive, and ultimately unproductive investigation into who leaked Valerie Plame's name to the press. We now know that it was Richard Armitage who did that (scot free, I might add). Libby didn't have his facts straight and got nailed because the special prosecutor had utterly failed to take what he knew (ARMITAGE!) and prosecute based on that (ARMITAGE!). Instead he wastes taxpayer dollars on a drawn out investigation that is a failure in two ways: He knew who the culprit was early on (i.e., the investigation was successfully COMPLETED) and he winds up prosecuting the WRONG guy on trumped up charges tangentially related to the investigation that was COMPLETED before the special prosecutor even talked with Libby.
So the fact that if the investigation had been properly concluded by Fitzgerald then Libby would never have even been open to a charge of obstructing justice is one reason Bush is commuting his sentence.
Another is that all presidents protect their cronies. Clinton paid his cronies off in Whitewater by pardoning them (at least the ones that kept their mouths shut). We should expect no better from Bush.
Anyway, if Bush lets Libby hang for this then all the smart kids in Washington will never do anything for any president, Dem, Rep, or other because who knows what investigation into a scandal will result in prosecution for what is essentially a bad memory?
OK, rant over. I will revise my opinion if my facts are not straight. And what has this to do with guns?
So the fact that if the investigation had been properly concluded by Fitzgerald then Libby would never have even been open to a charge of obstructing justice is one reason Bush is commuting his sentence.
Another is that all presidents protect their cronies. Clinton paid his cronies off in Whitewater by pardoning them (at least the ones that kept their mouths shut). We should expect no better from Bush.
Anyway, if Bush lets Libby hang for this then all the smart kids in Washington will never do anything for any president, Dem, Rep, or other because who knows what investigation into a scandal will result in prosecution for what is essentially a bad memory?
OK, rant over. I will revise my opinion if my facts are not straight. And what has this to do with guns?
Dravur
Member
and when the Prez commutes or pardons... THAT IS THE LAW. So, quit the chest thumping.
Also, to those complaining that people are whining that Prez Clinton did it too and two wrongs dont make a right, etc. I think the people posting about that are trying to say that the Dems are Hypocrits in their hyperventilating on this but nary a peep when Clinton did it.
So, give it up. THis was a non story right from the start. And to the person who claimed that Libby was told to leak the name to Richard Armitage and Karl Rove.... Put the tinfoil hat back on, the rays are baking your brain. Or, better yet, back up your claim....
sound of crickets.....
There were crimes, but due to the threat of using classified evidence, Obstruction of Justice (by Libby, as ironic as THAT is) and Executive Privilege by the VP office, Fitzgerald could not take it to trial. He hoped to use Libby's jail time as a reason for Libby to be a witness for the prosecution. Well...that plan is now all done!
The wagons are well circled!
That's extortion.
Not just me. And not just conservatives.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/06/19/DI2007061901259.html
It was never established that Scooter Libby "lied" at all, if lying involves doing something intentional.
As far as punishment? Fine him $500 and be done with it, if you think he really did anything.
We're talking about 30 months in the slammer, here, a real human being. That's not justice. It's a politically-motivated witchburning.
I sure am eager to hear the details of this "politically-motivated prosecution" given that the prosecuting attorney was a Bush appointee, the judge was as well and the CIA (who raised the initial cry) was staffed with Bush appointees.
Bush won't pardon Libby while he's in office - remaining on probation secures Libby's 5th Amendment claim in the face of say, Congressional inquiries. A pardon would mean that Libby couldn't avoid testifying truthfully.
Bush won't pardon Libby while he's in office - remaining on probation secures Libby's 5th Amendment claim in the face of say, Congressional inquiries. A pardon would mean that Libby couldn't avoid testifying truthfully.
jerkyman45
Member
How can anyone be surprised by this? Most of the news outlets are saying "shock over Bush's decison" or something along those lines. I am not at all surprised, i never thought Scooter would spend a single night in prison. He still pays a price for what he did, and in all honesty I dont care too much about this, we as a country have much larger problems then Valerie Plane and Scooter.
When you have to invent the crime, it's not. Or if it is, then that means we have even greater problems with prosecutorial ethics than it seems.
It's no different from a cop tossing a bag of cocaine in your nightstand, except that the prosecutor wears a nice suit.
People howl about habeas corpus, but have no problem with framing a person because they don't like his bosses?
Which is it? Innocent until proven guilty, or the courts as weapons of political revenge?
Libby should never have been prosecuted.
It has become clear that Fitzgerald knew for quite some time that there was no underlying crime, and the investigation should have been dropped. Surely there were some REAL crimes going on in the Federal Government in the same time frame?!?
Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby are white collar versions of the Duke Lacrosse team, scapegoats for anger, not actual criminals.
The mentality of some in our justice system reminds me of the French Reign of Terror in 1793. This tendency towards turning every public (or even academic) displeasure into the prosecution of any available low-hanging fruit is far more frightening than the Patriot Act.
Furthermore, I think it's equally frightening that some of you here are cheerleaders for this. Actually, it's disgusting.
wrong, wrong, and some more wrong
Libby was convicted of four felony counts of obstruction of justice, making false statements, and perjury.
Fitzgerald made it clear that he *couldn't* determine whether someone was outed on purpose because once he got high enough into the Admin, he was stonewalled. This is why he came down hard on Libby for what some consider such a minor offense. He wanted to send a message.
It has become clear that Fitzgerald knew for quite some time that there was no underlying crime, and the investigation should have been dropped. Surely there were some REAL crimes going on in the Federal Government in the same time frame?!?
Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby are white collar versions of the Duke Lacrosse team, scapegoats for anger, not actual criminals.
The mentality of some in our justice system reminds me of the French Reign of Terror in 1793. This tendency towards turning every public (or even academic) displeasure into the prosecution of any available low-hanging fruit is far more frightening than the Patriot Act.
Furthermore, I think it's equally frightening that some of you here are cheerleaders for this. Actually, it's disgusting.
wrong, wrong, and some more wrong
Libby was convicted of four felony counts of obstruction of justice, making false statements, and perjury.
Fitzgerald made it clear that he *couldn't* determine whether someone was outed on purpose because once he got high enough into the Admin, he was stonewalled. This is why he came down hard on Libby for what some consider such a minor offense. He wanted to send a message.
And I don't see sending a man to jail for 30 months to "send a message" as justice. Auto de fe, like I said. Scooter Libby is not a symbol; he's a man. This is not justice.
If someone really did something wrong, then GO AFTER HIM. If it's hard, well, that's part of the job.
You are wrong, wrong, and wrong.
And like I said, disgusting.
Bush hatred is no excuse for doing this to an invidual. Wrong is wrong.
There's something libertarian about spending years and milllions of dollars, sending an individual to serve 2 1/2 years in jail, when a crime never occurred in the first place, in order to "send a message"? Valerie Plame was not covert. She couldn't have been "outed" because there was nothing to "out."
Or is it not his libertarianism that attracts you to Ron Paul?
Sav .250
Member
No surprise there. All that "do-process" and then this. What a crock!
One more thing. From Richard Cohen in the linked WaPo article:
Cohen opposes the war in Iraq, opposes George Bush and his policies, and is by no stretch a conservative.
Too many people -- too may people HERE -- are willing to let prosecutorial power reach levels that are frightening and go against everything our nation and our Constitution are built upon, just because in this case, it's a way to get at Bush.
Sick. And dangerous.
If you AT ALL oppose the Patriot Act and holding people declared "enemy combatants" without habeas corpus or their day in court, how can you justify this abuse of the power by the justice system? How is it any better?
Cohen opposes the war in Iraq, opposes George Bush and his policies, and is by no stretch a conservative.
Too many people -- too may people HERE -- are willing to let prosecutorial power reach levels that are frightening and go against everything our nation and our Constitution are built upon, just because in this case, it's a way to get at Bush.
Sick. And dangerous.
If you AT ALL oppose the Patriot Act and holding people declared "enemy combatants" without habeas corpus or their day in court, how can you justify this abuse of the power by the justice system? How is it any better?
Cowboybootnut
Member
Geez, I didn't know Chris "Softball" Matthews and Keith "Countdown" Dopeyman were gun nuts! 
Since Day 1 of this, the libs/Democrats/Bush haters saw this Valerie Plame thing as the next Watergate. I am sure they were counting the days until VP Cheney, Karl Rove, and perhaps even President Bush were being carted off, handcuffed, going to the Big House. Guess what? It didn't happened.
If anyone should be investigated in this mess, it is the lounge lizard Wilson, (who the heck sent him to Niger), and Richard Armitage.
Libby has paid and immense price, he is still a felon, he still has to pay a fine, and I am sure his legal bills are more than what we would have had to pay for a similar charge.
Since Day 1 of this, the libs/Democrats/Bush haters saw this Valerie Plame thing as the next Watergate. I am sure they were counting the days until VP Cheney, Karl Rove, and perhaps even President Bush were being carted off, handcuffed, going to the Big House. Guess what? It didn't happened.
If anyone should be investigated in this mess, it is the lounge lizard Wilson, (who the heck sent him to Niger), and Richard Armitage.
Libby has paid and immense price, he is still a felon, he still has to pay a fine, and I am sure his legal bills are more than what we would have had to pay for a similar charge.
Plame had the perfect cover as a CIA agent who was married to a diplomatic envoy. After she was outed, everyone she EVER had contact with would be a suspected CIA agent. There is absolutely no telling how many foreign agents were put in danger by revealing her identity.
This is a potentially serious blow to our intelligence services and national security (real security, not TSA feel good security).
This is not a non-story. This is also not a case of over-zealous prosecuting.
This is a case of The People trying to hold the administration accountable, and failing.
I've not liked Bush/Cheney from day one. I never thought they were outright traitors though. The last seven years have led me to believe that when the full truth of what the admin did, and why they did it comes to light that we are going to see Bush Jr. tried for crimes against humanity the same as Sadam.
I can't prove any of what I think went on; if I could I imagine the American public would skip the impeachment...
If you or I perjured ourselves in federal court, it would be at the judge's discretion how long we were locked up. The only reason Mr. Libby gets a pass is because he did what the big dog told him too. I still don't understand how Armitage and Rove didn't get indicted as well.
Maybe my tinfoil hat's just on too tight.
This is a potentially serious blow to our intelligence services and national security (real security, not TSA feel good security).
This is not a non-story. This is also not a case of over-zealous prosecuting.
This is a case of The People trying to hold the administration accountable, and failing.
I've not liked Bush/Cheney from day one. I never thought they were outright traitors though. The last seven years have led me to believe that when the full truth of what the admin did, and why they did it comes to light that we are going to see Bush Jr. tried for crimes against humanity the same as Sadam.
I can't prove any of what I think went on; if I could I imagine the American public would skip the impeachment...
If you or I perjured ourselves in federal court, it would be at the judge's discretion how long we were locked up. The only reason Mr. Libby gets a pass is because he did what the big dog told him too. I still don't understand how Armitage and Rove didn't get indicted as well.
Maybe my tinfoil hat's just on too tight.
The point, to me, is that even if it SHOULD have, taking out all the anger and frustration on one guy like Scooter Libby, who wasn't even much of a "player", in this way, through our "justice" system, is morally wrong, and dangerous to our freedom.
Libby was convicted of two counts of perjury, one count of obstructing justice in a grand jury investigation, and one of the two counts of making false statements to federal investigators. This wasn't just a "memory lapse."
I just don't see how prosecuting him is a danger to our freedoms.
brerrabbit
Member
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The president can justify it all he wants too. Me the little man, to punish the president and the people that back him, all I can do is try my level best to make sure my congress critter does not go back to washington next year. Loyalty to a corrupt man does come at
a price.
Bumperstickers are so much easier to get printed out nowadays.The same for donating to the Democrat party .
Time for another politician to feed at the public trough.
a price.
Bumperstickers are so much easier to get printed out nowadays.The same for donating to the Democrat party .
Time for another politician to feed at the public trough.
There was this guy in my neighborhood who gave the cable guy 20 bucks to get all the porn channels free. Then he sold the house and the new owners payed the cable guy 20 bucks to get all the channels free. All the other neighbors found out and they all raised hell because they had to pay full price for the channels and they didnt think it was right that he got all the channels free. They all agreed that it didnt make it right just because the previous owners did the same thing. It was still wrong non the less. Two wrongs dont make a right.
I dont work for MSM and I am not a DEM, so what the hell is wrong with me? I think it is total BS.
Because there was NO UNDERLYING CRIME, he was brought in and hammered with questions until he did "something wrong." There did not appear to be any collusion or sinister plan behind any of it.
Ditto for Martha Stewart.
If it is a threat to our freedoms to haul you or me before a Grand Jury and hammer us with questions until we were "caught" saying something, and then we were sent to jail for it even though there was no crime in the first place, then it's a threat when it happens to someone else.
It means that you can target an individual and keep at it until you can find a way to send him to jail, even when nobody did anything illegal in the first place. That's an abuse of prosecutorial power of the sort that happens in dictatorships.
Read the WaPo article I linked to above, and then tell me there's no problem with this.
Erebus
Member
She was not under any cover.
It was never a secret, therefore it's none.
Possibly but more likely because it was BS. He was prosecuted to justify the huge expense of an investigation into nothing. The nothing being Plame being outed when she was never covert.
Because you can't "out" someone that was never covert!! That's why.
Or the Kool-Aid tastes too good. Don't believe everything you hear form reporters and politicians. The big news stations and newspapers seem to be getting closer and closer to National Enquirer tactics every day.
The Law
Member
I agree it's total BS. Cronyism at its finest. However, the Democratic presidential candidates are making hay with this commutation. I think it's hypocritical when they stand up there and chide Bush for this when Bubba did it and that was fine.
It's been done before and it will be done again.
davera
Member
Scooter Libby was convicted of perjury based on a faulty memory of exactly when he said what to who. The whos involved didn't have recordings or notes so it boiled down to he said-he said.
Libby's memory was no more faulty than several other players who testified before the grand jury but a Bush administration scalp was demanded.
The original crime for which the special prosecutor was named was never charged although it was known very early on that Richard Armitage was the source that "outed" the not-very-secret agent Plame.
This was a travesty of justice and if Bush had any stones he would have given him a full pardon.
It seems that for different reasons, I am coming to agree with my lefty friends about this much - "Bush is a dumba**".
Libby's memory was no more faulty than several other players who testified before the grand jury but a Bush administration scalp was demanded.
The original crime for which the special prosecutor was named was never charged although it was known very early on that Richard Armitage was the source that "outed" the not-very-secret agent Plame.
This was a travesty of justice and if Bush had any stones he would have given him a full pardon.
It seems that for different reasons, I am coming to agree with my lefty friends about this much - "Bush is a dumba**".
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