Browning 1885 BPCR Upgrade?

[KansasTrapper77]

Cabela’s got in a Browning 1885 BPCR.

$1800 no box, nothing.
I have a Uberti, Taylor imported double trigger 1885 with Lee Shaver Sights. I am considering trading up to the Browning due to the strength of the action and my appreciation for Miroku made firearms. I think the price is a little high so I will wait and haggle a little.

I like the Uberti looks and naturally its adherence to the original design. But the trigger has left something to be desired. And the crescent butt stock is killing me. If I don’t get this Browning I will be cutting it down shotgun style.

The Browning is built like a tank and will take stout loads. Reasonable accurate with a faster twist than the Uberti for heavier bullets. Comes with globe front and rear flip up sights. But it has a complicated action and I have heard a less than amazing trigger itself.

I just wanted to hear your fellas opinions.

Thanks.

 

[redneck2]

Is it a Creedmoor in .45-90?

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Is there a model called the creedmore? No sir its is a .45-70 BPCR model?

 

[Chuck R.]

Is it a Creedmoor in .45-90?

A friend of mine has a Creedmoor, very nice rifle, great shooter, and not many made.

My .45-90 is a Ballard R&C High-Wall repro, so I give him chit about his coil springs..

 

[redneck2]

I have an unfired Browning Creedmoor in .45-2.4 Sharps (.45-90). It has a 1/2 round, half octagon Badger Ordinance 34” barrel. Case hardened receiver. Ladder rear sight, globe front sight. Made to shoot 1,000 yards. I believe there were a total of around 350 made. Special order only.

I called Browning and was told that the barrel is modern steel and will take modern loads.

 

[Slamfire]

I am glad I purchased my Winchester BPCR when I did.




They may be collectable now. This guy is writing books about them, and that probably means, the BPCR's have obtained a mythic status

http://www.texas-mac.com/Browning_BPCR_book.html

his advice on what to look for is worth reading

http://www.texas-mac.com/Purchasing_Used_Browning_or_Winchester_BPCR.html

discussion on BPCR's

http://www.texas-mac.com/BPCR_Firearms.html

I decided to get one as the things came with a Badger match barrels and the rifle was built to be a match rifle. I have read about the action being different from an original 1885. I don't know what the differences were, and I have not disassembled my action which I am sure would mess something up. The trigger pull is fine, I shot AA5744 smokeless loads, so I don't have black powder residue to rust out the mechanism.

I would have loved to buy a Martini Henry made of modern materials in 45/70, as that action is one of the best single shot actions ever made. It is also a very safe action as gas release would go up and down, not back in my face.

This is a wall hanger. Probably killed a bunch of people in Afghanistan, as it was purchased in a Afghanistan bazaar. I had the bayonet, it needed a friend.



When I looked at M1885 actions, the case head is well supported and gas would tend to flow up and down, the firing pin hole is about the only rear ward vent. Based on the breech block support and high sidewalls, I think this is a very safe action.



I have looked a rolling blocks and that action, while ingenious, simple, etc. It won't handle gas well and the rolling block can be pushed out of the way if forces on the breech block are too great. Mainspring tension is surprisingly important in keeping rolling blocks in battery. Other "classic" Western actions, such as the Sharps, they were interesting. I believe the 1885 action was better just due to the fact it survived as a factory rifle till the 1920's.

I have not fired my BPCR enough to know the durability of anything. It will hit a pie pan at 100 yards with lead bullets and AA5744. I have friends who spent days if not weeks tuning black powder loads, one bud claims to have set a 300 yard group record with his blackpowder rifle. It was a 3 inch ten shot group. I am sure I could get good blackpowder groups with my BPCR if I was to spend that much time, but I won't.

That 30 inch barrel makes the rifle long, it is therefore primarily a target rifle. I prefer the pistol grip stock to the straight grip 1885's I have handled. Having a comfortable, stress free hand position is very important for consistent shooting.

I don't know what Taylor 1885 you have, I looked at their web page and they have lots of models. Based on the prices, I would not sell or trade the rifle you have till after you get the BPCR home. If you don't like the BPCR, the cost of a new Taylor 1885 is very high.

 

[Charlie98]

Cabela’s got in a Browning 1885 BPCR.

$1800 no box, nothing.
I have a Uberti, Taylor imported double trigger 1885 with Lee Shaver Sights. I am considering trading up to the Browning due to the strength of the action and my appreciation for Miroku made firearms. I think the price is a little high so I will wait and haggle a little.

I don't know that you will gain anything if you are shooting BP or BP-level smokeless loads, in regards to the strength of the action. I do agree with you... love those Miroku Brownings, though!

Given the hotbed market for lever-actions and that sort, I probably wouldn't wait too long to make your bid... it may not be there next trip!

 

[Charlie98]

That 30 inch barrel makes the rifle long, it is therefore primarily a target rifle.

My Pedersoli 1885 has a 32" barrel... I don't normally carry it 1 foot further than it needs to go. It makes it a stable, sweet shooter, however...

 

[KansasTrapper77]

[/QUOTE]

I don't know what Taylor 1885 you have, I looked at their web page and they have lots of models. Based on the prices, I would not sell or trade the rifle you have till after you get the BPCR home. If you don't like the BPCR, the cost of a new Taylor 1885 is very high.[/QUOTE]

My Taylor is one of their more budget models. 30” inch lighter octagon, cheaper wood, a crescent butt stock, double triggers. It did NOT come with globe sights or venier tang sight. I purchased a set of Lee Shaver sights for it.

The reason I am interested in the Browning is the aforementioned high quality barrel, its shotgun style stock and the fact it is very strong action. I would like to beat myself up a little and see what the maximum range of the sights are.

I have access to a 1000 yard range and occasionally a Mile Long range. So I would like to goof off.

Typical Cabela’s I think they’re priced a little high and I doubt they’d offer me what I consider a fair price for the Taylor-Uberti. We shall see if I can financially finagle something.

 

[Slamfire]

The reason I am interested in the Browning is the aforementioned high quality barrel, its shotgun style stock and the fact it is very strong action.

I do not know your basis for claiming the Winchester Miroku 1885 is "stronger" than the Uberti. To make such an assessment one would have to know the materials and how they were heat treated. Since the 45/70 cartridge is a smokeless cartridge, I would assume both the Winchester Miroku 1885 and the Uberti are made of modern materials (a guess 8620) and the actions were heat treated to withstand SAAMI spec 45/70 pressures. Not heat treated to a knife edge, but heat treated so the surface is hard, and the material retains enough ductility to have a long impact/fatigue life. I did ask a custom action maker why he used 8620 on his Frazier action, and the reply was that 8620 would take a color case hardening pattern whereas 4340 would not. Customers wanted those beautiful colors that were on period low grade carbon steels. Pre WW1 steels were low grade, low carbon, typically the only hardening was the case layer. It is quite the art to get those colors. For modern materials, color case hardening is a decorative surface finish, modern alloy steels are through hardening and superior in all respects to the plain carbon steels of the Old West.

I would not make any assumptions that a Winchester Miroku 1885 can be hot rodded at higher pressures than a Uberti. For all we know, they both purchased their forgings from the same Korean Forge shop! (no joke: Remington Huntsville purchased their 1911 slide forgings from a Korean Forge shop)

 

[redneck2]

Since the 45/70 cartridge is a smokeless cartridge, I would assume both the Winchester Miroku 1885 and the Uberti are made of modern materials (a guess 8620) and the actions were heat treated to withstand SAAMI spec 45/70 pressures

I called Browning when I got my .45-90. I was told specifically that the barrel was equivalent to modern ones and used current manufacturing metals, methods, and standards

 

[Slamfire]

I called Browning when I got my .45-90. I was told specifically that the barrel was equivalent to modern ones and used current manufacturing metals, methods, and standards

I would not expect otherwise. I can't imagine any firearm manufacturer hauling up sunken ships from the 1800's to use period steels in their weapons. And bourbon makers no longer age their bourbons for 19 years in the barrel, like they were doing prior to prohibition.

Win some, lose some.

 

[Charlie98]

I went to The Source to find out about my Pedersoli... I went to Pedersoli. They rate my 1885 to 31,908 CUP or PSI... which I find a little odd. In fact, they rate all their firearms with a single figure, CUP or PSI. In the end, it doesn't really matter... I don't go anywhere near those numbers, my general loads are in the 22K range.

Certainly, both Browning and Uberti publish pressure limits for their firearms.

I called Browning when I got my .45-90. I was told specifically that the barrel was equivalent to modern ones and used current manufacturing metals, methods, and standards

As Slam says, I would be surprised if they didn't... but even with that, because of the proliferation of tiered .45-70 (etc) data, I would think they would absolutely spell out the limits of their respective rifles.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

The strength of Browning falling blocks is often quoted to on par or very near that of Ruger No. 1s. And I have no plans to max it out my current plinking load is a very tame 405gr at like 1300fps. But a heavier pill a little hot might help stretch my max range of the soule sight.

Now concerning the soule sight, are the browning sights decent? This one seemed a little stiff

 

[redneck2]

Mine turns as easily as one would expect

 

[Jim Watson]

Those Miroku Brownings were also made in modern smokeless calibers, they don't lack strength.
The internal design is very different from a John Browning Winchester.

Lee Shaver does an inexpensive trigger job on them, there is a DIY kluge that works pretty well, a friend did mine.

The sights are OK; I put Baldwins on my .40-65 to match my Winchester .38-55's adjustments and sight picture.

What is wrong with your Uberti's double set trigger?

I would have loved to buy a Martini Henry made of modern materials in 45/70, as that action is one of the best single shot actions ever made.

The Martini action is sturdy and simple. Main disadvantages are lack of straight line access to the chamber and a long reach from grip to trigger.
A shame that Peabody doesn't get credit for the design. Martini converted it to hammerless - and Peabody made them that way, too - and the service rifles use Alex Henry rifling. But Peabody who originated the tipping breechblock is lost in history.

I never heard of Damko, but they are building new Martinis.
https://www.damko-usa.com/damko-modern-martini-rifle-c-54_56/
But they don't offer .45-70.

The last of the British Martinis was the Enfield Martini in .402 calibre, the last gasp of a black powder service rifle.
Strangely, they were all converted to .577-.450 for colonial troops while older .577-.450s were converted to .303.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

What is wrong with your Uberti's double set trigger?

Its a very light trigger but a long pull without a clean brake. So not unusable just not my favorite.

 

[MEHavey]

Its a very light trigger....but a long pull without a clean brake

Those latter conditions are the polar opposite of a set trigger.
You sure that's what you meant to say/describe?

.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Those latter conditions are the polar opposite of a set trigger.
You sure that's what you meant to say/describe?

.

It is adjustable and I haven’t messed with it. I tested it and the pull weight was about 2lbs but very long. Maybe I need to tweak it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Two pounds set isn't right. Ought to be maybe half a pound with no movement.
I don't want one, a hair trigger on one gun, a crisp pull on others is confusing.

 

[redneck2]

I’ve got three different rifles with set triggers. One is a replica of an 1850 Hatfield type heavy muzzle loader. Even that 170 year old replica has exactly what Jim describes above. My two CZ’s are the same.

Yours sounds odd.

 

[MEHavey]

Is the OP perhaps saying the SET (rear) trigger is hard/long pull?

 

[redneck2]

Is the OP perhaps saying the SET (rear) trigger is hard/long pull?

That’s an excellent point. I’d bet you’re not getting it set. Without sounding condescending, could some that has one of these explain the proper set procedure?

Every set trigger I’ve tried breaks clean, instantaneously, and very light. My CZ .22 is probably 3-4 ounces

 

[Jim Watson]

Or he is dragging the front trigger through the unset pull.
But I usually assume the instructions have been read.

 

[redneck2]

But I usually assume the instructions have been read.

That’s a pretty big leap of faith.

One of my most commonly used phrases is “95% of life’s problem are the result of operator error”