bullet feeder for 650

[go8dalejr]

Want some opinions on the prototype bullet feeder shown on
brian enos website. Would it be a huge time saver,put out a few more
rounds not a must,pain in the rear to miss with?

 

[Tree Rat]

Needs to work.....We'll see.

How about you taking the plunge and reporting back to us?

TR

 

[Cortland]

I have a Hornady Lock-N-Load AP with casefeeder, which is more or less 650ish in its operation. I really don't think an automatic bullet feeder would speed things up much if at all.

The photos I've seen of the 650 bullet feeder aren't all that impressive. It looks like the $800 bullet feeder is permanently mated to a toolhead and is thus only useful for one caliber, and the hopper looks like it holds a good 10 to 15 bullets.

The way I see it progressive presses are a tremendously quicker than single stage presses, progressives with casefeeders are a good deal faster than those without, but by the time you strap a bullet feeder on to the contraption you've now run into some significantly diminishing returns.

 

[go8dalejr]

I just have a hard time justifying it when I could buy a decked out
second 650 for $800 to $1000.

 

[Archie]

Depends....

If it were something on the order of the case feeder... where I could dump a box of bullets in the hopper and commence to crank, and work with pretty much all bullets... I would be interested. But probably not to the point of doubling the price of the machine.

As it is, my 650 does me real well.

 

[cheygriz]

At $250 it would be a must have, at $800, it's a waste of money

 

[jmorris]

This started out when I decided I needed a bullet feeder for my sizing machine. I looked at the MS Systems set up, and at almost $1000 I thought it was a little on the expensive side. After they sent me an instruction manual, I noticed they clam a failure rate (upside down bullet) of 1 in 1000 for .45 bullets, because they are short and fat. That may not sound too bad, but if it jams up your machine… It seems it works much better with long skinny bullets (.223, 1 in 10,000). Of course, if you load wadcutters (non-hollow base) you won’t ever have any problems. I needed it for .45 bullets, 230 RN mostly but also 200 SWC capable.
I took .125” aluminum and first cut a 12.5” circle then rolled a 4” wide piece to form the hopper. I made the collating wheel out of Tyvar (super slick and very tough). I added a few polypropylene and spring steel “sweeps” to knock out ill-placed bullets. A double split set collar was used as an inexpensive “clutch” if a jam were to occur. The collator is mounted using two set collars, so the operating angle may be adjusted if necessary. After a few different configurations I went with a 3 o’clock exit for the bullet. The 4-rpm gear motor allows between 2800-3200 bullets an hour to be collated. Like the MS Systems machine, a few inverted bullets would occasionally occur.
This set up ran for less than an hour on my sizing machine before I decided it would have to be hooked up to the 650. All I needed to come up with at that point, was a way to make sure the machine never inverted a bullet. If a bullet went into my sizing machine up side down it was forced through anyway. In loading ammunition the down time to fix the problem could outweigh all the convenience of automation.
It took a bit of thought; however, the solution was fairly simple. The collator feeds each bullet through a culling device. This failsafe system is made from a .75” thick piece of aluminum that mounts a solenoid, which operates a trap door. When a bullet drops into the wheel it is driven across a whisker switch, if the bullet is oriented correctly, small end up, it passes the (closed) trap door and continues on until being dropped into the bullet feed tube. If the bullet is inverted the larger diameter of the base triggers the switch. This activates the solenoid, opening the trap door that drops the bullet down an aluminum tube into a bin mounted on the side. This component has an 8-rpm gear motor, and can check 2400 bullets an hour, it works 100%.
A limit switch was placed into each feed tube to stop the respective gear motor when a tube becomes full, much like the Dillon case feeder. Another adapter had to be machined to mate the collator to a GSI bullet feeder. The only part of the 650 that I permanently modified was the post that holds the case feeder.
The wires coming out of the low primer warning system and the powder check system are for the next phase of the project. These will tie into a latching relay and shut off the main drive motor when either system is triggered. Two additional limit switches, connected to a time delay relay, these will stop the drive motor if the ram does not complete a full stroke, up or down, in the time allotted (saves the clutch if a jam occurs). The drive motor I chose runs at 20 rpm allowing 3 seconds per round to total 1200 in an hour, if you keep everything full. Not quite the 3500-7000 rounds an hour from most automated machines; however, also not the $15,000-$35,000 either.

 

[PsychoKnight]

Wow. Excellent example of American ingenuity.

Um . . . would you be upset if I said you might have too much time on your hands?

 

[flutedchamber]

A very nice design indeed. Just one question. What do you use for a transfer mechanism from your bullet feeder to your seatind die?

Thanks again.

 

[jmorris]

There are two different bullet feeders for the 650 that I know of, one takes the place of the powder check die (I didn’t want to loose it) and the other is built buy gsiinternational.com. The unit takes place of the tool head using all of your original dies except the seating die. It is a quality unit and after a year of use has worked 100%.
Last year when I bought the feeder, GSI said they were close to finishing a collator of their own design. A friend of mine just received his last week, and unfortunately it has chronic jamming problems and a noisy gear motor driving it. It did give me a few ideas, though.

 

[Jet22]

I have a bullet feed system that was made by C-H a while back. Mine is in 223 but they made it in 30 cal also. I believe they said they would make it in any caliber.

It is simply a die with a ball bearing clutch system and a tube full of bullets. As a case is fed up into the die the bullet gets partially seated. The bullet above is held by a ball bearing untill released by a cam on the press. It then falls into seating position. Other bullets are waiting in a tube that mounts in the top of the die.

It has a few problems. One is that you need a press with 8 stations if you want to do many other operations (mine is on a Dillon RL1000, so this isn't a problem). The other is that you have to fill the tube with bullets. I don't use this much because it takes as much time to fill the tubes as it does to start the bullets by hand. A collator like jmorris describes above would be helpfull!!

 

[highlander 5]

waste of money. IIRC you need a caliber specific unit for whatever cartridge your shooting gonna get expesive real fast.
Besides if you can load 400 rds an hour manually how much will you gain with this device?

 

[jmorris]

700-800 more rounds an hour...

 

[Flyer007]

JMorris, I am curious if you are still using this setup. Have you refined it further? Have you written up and further detailed instructions or videos for it?

I am looking to build something to feed a Lee Loadmaster bullet feed system.

Thanks,

 

[jmorris]

Thats sure is an old one but welcome aboard. I haven’t used that setup in years I built some much smaller collators that are more like the KISS unit. I turned the setup above into a case feeder (top of the first photo) and a 380 from 9mm separator. In any case unless Lee has changed the design since I had one, feeding the bullet feeder is going to be the least of your problems.

 

[GW Staar]

JMorris--I noticed at "Ultimatereloader.Com", that it's possible to use RCBS's bullet feeder on the 650. He seems to do all right with it, but other early adopters had mixed reactions to that design. What is your thoughts?

RCBS's .22 cal rifle bullet feeder is now shipping, it will be interesting how all that turns out. I just emailed them to get some questions answered...when I get a reply I will share on the thread I started last night when I hear.

The rifle version feeds and seats in one station, more like the GSI, than the Mr. Bullet Feeder,...too bad the pistol version didn't.

 

[Flyer007]

Those are some nice looking units. Any chance you have a write up on how you made the new ones?

For some reason the Lee stuff has been working fine for me (people have nicknamed me McGuyver) Not to say that I don't appreciate the other presses.

 

[jmorris]

I have never used the RCBS feeder. Most of my high volume pistol reloading uses small quantities of fast powders so I feel a powder check die is a must. I also like to seat and crimp in two steps, this makes the GSI the only bullet feeder that will work for me. I load rifle on a 1050 and use a KISS feeder and it works just fine.

 

[jmorris]

Those are some nice looking units. Any chance you have a write up on how you made the new ones?

Not really they are made from PVC and Hyvar (more plastic). I built simple fixtures to make the wheels, using ¼” plate and cut off bolts for indexing. About the only tricky part is making the “flipper” making this part removable is a good idea.

 

[GW Staar]

I have never used the RCBS feeder. Most of my high volume pistol reloading uses small quantities of fast powders so I feel a powder check die is a must. I also like to seat and crimp in two steps, this makes the GSI the only bullet feeder that will work for me. I load rifle on a 1050 and use a KISS feeder and it works just fine.

I agree with the powder check die and the separate crimp die. That is exactly why my RCBS Pro 2000 hasn't experienced last year's RCBS pistol feeder either. The GSI is good product and I once emailed them to request they make a version for my press....not even the courtesy of an answer. Gee what a simple conversion it would be...just copy the RCBS head and the rest of the parts would work. IMO short-sighted.

I would love to have a 1050 too...what a joy...never happen at my house...too many priorties forever ahead of it.

An RCBS R&D engineer that I'm acquainted with answered my email and in effect said if the reloading world wants bullet feeder conversion kits for rifle to pistol and from .22 to .30 cal rifle (and vs.) we all have to request it. See my current RCBS Bullet Feeder Thread for a link to do that.

My thread is getting very little attention, even tho these rifle kits are GSI-like, (uses one station to feed and seat), is designed to work on most any progressive, and is way cheaper than GSI. RCBS doesn't get the respect they should anymore.

 

[jmorris]

RCBS doesn't get the respect they should anymore

It’s like Hot rodding an Oldsmobile when all of the support exists for Chevrolet. Aftermarket supports what they can sell the most of. Folks that are willing to plop down the cash on a bullet feeder are generally high volume reloaders shooting some sort of gun game. You can look at surveys like IDPA has all of the National shooters fill out every year and almost all of the shooters use Dillon equipment, thus the following.

That doesn’t say there is any thing wrong with the RCBS they just don’t think they will be able to sell enough to make money (as you know the same can be said for RCBS itself). Especially when an alternative like the Mr. Bullet feeder exists, even though it has limitations.

 

[GW Staar]

That doesn’t say there is any thing wrong with the RCBS they just don’t think they will be able to sell enough to make money (as you know the same can be said for RCBS itself). Especially when an alternative like the Mr. Bullet feeder exists, even though it has limitations.

GSI is the only product until this new RCBS Rifle Feeder (BTW the .308 version showed up at Cabelas today...) that feeds and seats in one station. The problem with both the GSI and RCBS products is no caliber conversion kits. Whether that stands with RCBS is entirely up to us. Email RCBS and request conversion kits. Their engineer suggested that that would make all the difference. Why should anybody be interested???? Consider the following:

Here's what's availible from GSI:
Pistol feeders only for the Dillon 650 ($500) and Dillon 1050 ($700) , one station bullet feeders for one caliber, in 3 models: 9mm/38 Super; 40 cal.; .45 cal.; and 38 Special/357.
Rifle feeder, only for the Dillon 650 ($620), a one station bullet feeder for one caliber only in .223.
GSI advertises NO conversion kits and if you have a LNL, or a Pro 2000, you're out of luck anyway.

From RCBS:
Pistol Feeder Kit containing adapters to load 9mm, 357, 10mm, 40 and 45 caliber pistol bullets. ($380) for most progressive presses....uses two stations...one to feed, one to seat. (requires generous belled brass)
Rifle Feeders for most progressive press, one station feeder/seater, in calibers .223 AND .308. ($450)

The advantage of RCBS's rifle feeder is that they kept the feed mechanism out of the die head. You screw it on with the special drop-thru seater die. Two improvements there! One, is that press compatibility spreads to "most" progressives. Two, is cheaper manufacture so cheaper price.

Lets not leave out Mr. Bullet Feeder:
He offers pistol or .223 rifle bullet feeders in the caliber of your choice, in 38 Super/9mm; 40/10mm; 45; and of course .223 for $550. He also offers $150 conversion kits in each of those same calibers. The feeding mechanism is similar (but, perhaps better thought out) to the RCBS pistol feeders. They plop the bullet into a belled case, case indexes to a seater, then the bullet is seated. Again this method takes 2 stations to drop and seat, pistol and rifle.

So lets say you want to feed bullets for .223, .45ACP, 9MM, and 40S&W. Today you'd have to spend:

Dillon 650 owners...$2,120 from GSI, or $830 from RCBS, or $1,000 from Mr. Bullet Feeder. Oh, and if you want to add the .308 caliber the only posible total would be RCBS for $1280. (if MBF adds that caliber his total would be $1,150 (but all two station feed & seat))
Hornady LnL, and RCBS owners....the same except of course, forget GSI. (don't forget the RCBS rifle tools are one station feeder/seaters)

Let's say you buy the new RCBS .223 rifle feeder. Now if RCBS decides to make conversion kits for conversion to the simpler, but wide caliber choice, pistol feeder, say $200, and another $200 to convert it to the .308, then RCBS's total would be $850.
That's the point of Emailing RCBS!

 

[jmorris]

The problem with both the GSI and RCBS products is no caliber conversion kits.

When I purchased my GSI’s Xavier asked me if I just wanted a conversion kit or separate tool heads, so I assume at one time they did offer conversion kits. You may give them a call.

Oh, and if you want to add the .308 caliber the only posible total would be RCBS for $1280.

I know Roger sold 308 conversion kits and it looks like Rick does too they cost around $125 if you don't need the collator.


http://czcustom.com/kissbulletfeederfor308rif.aspx

 

[noylj]

I would be more than happy with Lee's bullet feed on my 1050 if I had the talent to make it work. Fixturing and such is just not in my capability.

 

[jmorris]

I would be more than happy with Lee's bullet feed on my 1050 if I had the talent to make it work. Fixturing and such is just not in my capability.

It's been around for years and they can't even get the bugs out of it.

M A Systems sold one (I want to say it was built by star but I am not sure) that was similar in design in that two arms held the bullet; however, the arms were not plastic, it was pneumatic, very expensive and worked.