Bullpup fans, are there any good bullpup rifles out on the market?

[SA Town]

I have been looking for quite a while for a bullpup semi-auto rifle. I don't care what it is chambered in, but I am concerned with the overall quality of the weapon itself, and the cost...

... speaking of cost, why the hell are almost all of these things in the $2,000 area anyways?

The PS-90s (in their variety of course) range from around $1,600 to $2,000. The FS2000s are around $2,100. The Kel-Tec RFBs are around $1,800. The Sabre-Defense Steyr AUGs are anywhere from $2,300 to $2,500.

I looked at the G22 and the M17S and heard they blow, so I;m guessing they are out of the question.

Give me a break, can anyone give me a good quality bullpup for a decent price?

 

[EdLaver]

Microtech MSAR STG (AUG clone), but as you said mostly all bullpup designed rifles are north of $2k.

 

[Maverick223]

I love my Bushy M17...but it took a bit of work to get tit the way I wanted.

the M17S and heard they blow

You take a AR and I'll take my M17 and we'll see which has a malfunction first...none so far...EVER.

 

[Martyk]

Look at it this way. 5 years from now they'll probably be $3,500. and you'll be looking back to today wishing you could get one for 2 grand!

 

[SpikeBayonet]

I've never had any problems with my G22 - fun to shoot, rarely (if ever) jams and accurate at reasonalbe ranges (I don't - and wonder why anyone would - expect .5 MOA at 300 yards or whatever, but nice tight groups at 100 yards are typical for me). Decent gun for a decent price - 'nuff said...

 

[wally]

speaking of cost, why the hell are almost all of these things in the $2,000 area anyways?

Because if you put such a crappy trigger on a $500 gun nobody would buy it

The MSAR AUG clone is probably the best overall for the money, the rest you are paying a lot for the name -- good for collecting not so good for shooting. The Bushy M17 has the advantage of using inexpensive AR mags and costing less, but it seems pretty heavy to me compared to the MSAR.

Main disadvantages with bullpups: poor trigger, awkward magazine changes, short sight radius, can be tough to get good cheek weld with optics, puttng your ear over the chamber is not good thing in event of a major malfunction, and they are difficult to use left handed. I think this pretty well explains why they are pretty much a niche gun.

Smaller production volumes lead to higher unit costs.

--wally.

 

[stubbicatt]

Last week I shot the FS 2000 as a rental at a gun range. The red dot sight on it was burned out or bad battery or something, leaving me with the iron sights. I had to rotate the rifle counterclockwise to get a cheekweld behind the sights. The trigger wasn't so bad, but perhaps I didn't put my face on it firmly enough 'cuz it felt like it was slapping my cheek.

If they had had a MSAR I would have tried it too.

I was pretty bummed, as I had had my heart all set on buying that FN rifle. Nearly all of the features I was looking for in a 223 carbine. But it just wasn't for me.

The guys at the counter were trying to get me to shoot the 5.7 carbine, P90? I didn't do it then, but probably should have tried it. Just that paying $25 for a box of 20 223 cartridges sort of deflated my sails a bit. I didn't ask what the ammo for the 5.7 cost.

 

[armoredman]

I wanted an M17s since they came out, but never found one when I had moeny, and vice versa. A buddy has one, loves it.

 

[Maverick223]

I wanted an M17s since they came out, but never found one when I had moeny, and vice versa.

Last I heard a well known high priced shop nearby had one for sale for about $2500.00USD , I paid about $500 for mine (used at a gun show) about 5 yrs. ago. I haven't a clue how many rounds I have put through it, but I haven't had a single problem that wasn't attributed to a banged up magazine. Tell your buddy to see my thread for a little advice on how to improve upon the original design (Found here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=459222). The gun is a bit on the heavy side, but is extremely well balanced. Even with optics I can easily shoot it one handed. The trigger is actually pretty good, it isn't light but has very little creep. It will put a lot of standard configuration rifles factory trigger to shame.

 

[SA Town]

Thanks for all the responses: from reading alot of these suggestions online it seems like the way to go is either with a black tri-rail PS90 (put your own optics on it) or the MSAR STG-556... which depresses me becuase of how expensive they are, lol.

Because if you put such a crappy trigger on a $500 gun nobody would buy it

I think that hits the nail on the head. Dealers and Companies seem to rouse up this fake prestige amongst buyers; they think that because something is expensive that the quality of the weapon is already through the roof. From what I've seen and heard, its anything but that.

Maverick, I didn't mean any disrespect in that earlier post, I apologize for being one of those people that usually supports something based on a general consensus without having tried it myself. That's not to say it's the blind leading the blind, it's just that I've seen so many bad range reports come back for that Bushmaster - I'm glad however, that you like it, and that's all that matters.

 

[Working Man]

I looked at the G22 and the M17S and heard they blow, so I;m guessing they are out of the question.

I have one and have found it to be a good reliable firearm. They are a bit heavy and not exactly smoth (heavy on the pull)
but are well made.

$2500.00USD

Waaaaaaay too much. They are discontinued but you can still find them on Gunbroker.com for much less.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=132543411 $850
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=132423288 $695


Oh, some do find it down right ugly, I'm not one of them.

 

[Maverick223]

Waaaaaaay too much.

Tell me about it...but it is hearsay (friend told me about it). I didn't see it and have no plans to find out for sure due to the high prices that I have found there in the past.

I'm not one of them.

Neither am I...I do find the MSAR and AUG to be a bit on the butt ugly side though, especially the new pistol caliber (9mm and .45ACP) versions.

 

[Maverick223]

Maverick, I didn't mean any disrespect in that earlier post

I didn't take any...just telling you my experiences with mine before you condemn it. All others may be horrible [I have never shot another M17(S)], but mine has been great, and remains to function well. Also, don't take my comment as me raging on the AR, I like ARs but have found my M17 to operate for a longer period without cleaning, oil, or maintenance.

 

[PTK]

Of all the bullpups I've handled, the PS90 is still my favorite. Between mags, SBRing, ammo, and accessories I have over $3k in mine, but I love it dearly.

(PS90 at bottom left)

 

[P.B.Walsh]

I want an SBR soooo bad, darn Alabama laws....

Oh yea, that Moisin is SWEEEETTTTT!!!!

 

[Badger Arms]

Bullpups are really cool... until you have to do a mag change. Effective rate of fire with my AR-180 or AR-15 is significantly higher as mag changes are super-quick.

 

[MrFox]

Well...Theres something you don't see every day. That tiny little Mosin just made my list of, "Why? But I bet its fun for atleast the first shot."

I got to handle the FS2000 and the MSAR STG at a local gun store. I was more impressed with the FS2000. I'm not sure why, but it just felt better. Thats without shooting, mind you. The MSAR STG did not have any optics on it, and just trying to imagine it left my face uncomfortably not on, and above, the rifle.

 

[Maverick223]

Dang PTK, like a short bbl do ya? Man I bet that MN, and the 12Ga. double/single is a beast.

If you can't tell by now...I really like a bullpup configuration rifle. My next (not including my SRS that has yet to arrive) will likely be a PS90. The only thing I don't like about it is the caliber, I would prefer a pistol cartridge (ideally .30 carbine).

 

[woodybrighton]

strangely nobody in the British army goes mag changes on an SA80 are painfully slow or that 5.56 isn't an effective round.
maybe just what you are used to

 

[everallm]

Countdown until the thread drops to generic slagging off of the bullpup as a weapon platform by folks who have rarely or never used them in 3....2....1....

Just to cut through the usuals, so we will then be able to return to our scheduled program.

A bullpup, like any firearm is a set of compromise, pluses and minuses.

Magazine changes in a bullpup are potentially marginally slower than a drop free AR15. It all comes down to practice and training and training and practice.

The generic bullpup trigger, due to the platform structure, has generally been seen to be "mushy" in comparison to the generic triggers of a non bullpup. This issue, based upon early feedback, appears to have been addressed in the Kel-Tec RFB.

As an aside, this trigger has not caused any accuracy issues with the L85A2 and the platform when first adopted was so much more accurate that the quals course had to be completely upgraded.

With a longer barrel than a comparable length "regular" rifle the bullpup format allows for greater muzzle velocity, viz

M4 30" - 33" overall length contracted/extended
L85A2 31"

M4 14.5" barrel
L85A2 20.5" barrel

Rule of thumb for 5.56 is a rough reduction of 40-50fps per barrel inch so potentially about 240-300 fps less in the M4

"I would be worried having a chamber so close to my head....what if it Kabooms?"
H'mm as opposed to a bolt action where your head is even closer and your right eye is practically in a direct line with the bolt......

"Why do Bullpups cost so much.......?"

Civvie weapons are dependant upon simple market economics. For Bullpups, there are fewer manufacturers, making fewer weapons than "regular" rifle formats. Inevitably fewer units leads to an increase in per unit manufacturing costs and this can be exacerbated by more (compartive) folks chasing a smaller pool of units.

Example is the Kel-tec RFB.

MSRP for the 18" barrel carbine is $1297.37
( http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GRFB18

Due to the slow release to the market and limited numbers Gunbroker and GunsAmerica have had them sold at upto $3700

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130098643

General rant off...... returning to your regular programme......

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

By the way, the Bushmaster 17S is a good rifle, and when you can find it for sale, typically fetches only $700 or so. And its a useful caliber that takes stanag mags. Best value in a bullpup seems to me, at least for a fighting/CQB rifle.

Hey PTK, you're my golden goose for my hacksaw sales business - ya think I could get an exclusive contract to keep you supplied with them?