new rifle suggestions? maybe a bullpup?

[TIMC]

KelTech RFB is my favorite bullpup!

 

[jason41987]

that keltec looks interesting, but im not looking for a 30 caliber.. its in my opinion that if im going with the extra weight and power of the .308, then id like the extra range that goes with it.. because close quarters/urban range the extra power offered just isnt worth the added weight

im REALLY leaning towards the aug/MSAR at this point though.. barrel changes relatively easily, no headspacing needed, better magazines, more reliable vs the AR15.. seems to be the go-to bullpup for a lot of shooters... not exactly a new or modern design, but certainly goes toe to toe, feature for feature with any of them

i think MSAR makes a version now with a removable shell deflector for shooting temporarily from the off-shoulder? (though i guess the FS2000 doesnt need that, ejecting forward).. im just having a tough time getting past the sci-fi/toy look of the FS2000

 

[JustinJ]

I'd only buy a SIG 551, not that 556 "pander the the AR" fanboys abomination

My point was not about SIG 551 vs 556, just about being an early buyer. As i understand the Sig 556's of today run well and the price has come down significantly from initial release.

hey.. found another rifle thats caught my attention, its pretty new though, not even out on the market but indications show this manufacturer will be making civilian models as soon as theyve supplied their own military with them.. its the CZ-805 bren... barrels changes fairly simply, interchangable magwells, standard mags being more of the G36 type... kind of has that ACR/SCAR vibe going but taking out the AR15 hiccups they have and adopting some ideas from the G36.. i like it, but it might be a few years before they hit the civilian market

Might be never for US customers. In current version the gun could not be legally imported.

 

[briansmithwins]

Friend of mine had a RFB. His never worked quite right after multiple trips to the factory for repair. He sold it after the last time it came back from KT.

The guy he sold it to had the gas block break within 400 rounds of him owning it.

It's hard to argue against the AUG. The FS2000 has it beat for ambidexterity but the AUG isn't a bad rifle by any means. Not going to be much cheaper than the FN product though and you're going to have to buy mags to support it.

BSW

 

[jason41987]

brain, one of the reasons i like the AUG though is because it uses its own mags.. the AR15 style mags arent the best design out there, the AUG uses mags that are fully curved... at the cost of magazine availability though, i mean, you can find STANAG mags everywhere, and relatively cheap

 

[briansmithwins]

Completely agree about the USGI mags being non-optimal.

My problem is I wanted to standardize. All the 556 rifles I own can use the same IWI steel mags and both my AKs can share mags.

One too many range trips where I couldn't do what I wanted to because I brought the wrong rifle-mag bags got me into this way of thinking.

BSW

 

[jason41987]

i know what you mean, would be such a headache if i could get a handful of quality mags and use them on anything.. in fact if i follow through with converting my ak-74 to 5.56mm, i can even get a magwell adapter to use ar15 mags.. but i wont... in a perfect world i guess the NATO countries would adopt a better magazine instead of wasting resources designing new rifles with that built in flaw... and lets face it, the new generation of rifles are still just as bad as the last ones as they all use the bad magazines

 

[jason41987]

when i look at 5.56 mil rifles, theres really nothing out there i really like for under $2k its frustrating to see innovative new designs that taint it by slapping that same magwell onto it... when you look at it, most new rifles out there seem like copies of the others... maybe i should continue with the one i was designing?.. would be cheaper for me to buy the equipment for a prototype or two

 

[JustinJ]

when i look at 5.56 mil rifles, theres really nothing out there i really like for under $2k its frustrating to see innovative new designs that taint it by slapping that same magwell onto it... when you look at it, most new rifles out there seem like copies of the others... maybe i should continue with the one i was designing?.. would be cheaper for me to buy the equipment for a prototype or two

Honestly i think your perception of AR mags is not correct. Yeah, there are junk ones out there but Pmags and a few others have proven to be incrdibly reliable and durable. I have 50 plus AR mags and enjoy not having to buy a whole new set for each gun i buy. Plus, quality AR mags can generally be had for less than most other gun mags in 5.56. Yes, i consider the AUG mags better but not by much when compared against modern polymer. The real advantage of the AUG mags comes when one wants higher capacity than 30 with reliability.

 

[briansmithwins]

The problem with using non-STAGNAG magazines in 556 rifles is there is a lot of resistance to those non-standard mags. People complain up one side and down the other about the SCAR17 not using M14, G3, or FAL mags.

Plus, any semi auto 556 rifle that's derived from a military assault rifle (FS2000-F2000, SCAR16S-SCAR16) pretty much has to use STANAG mags as that's what the various armies want. 556 is the NATO standard cartridge and the M16 pattern mag is the standard NATO magazine.

Switching to a different mag type else isn't in the cards until we get rid of 556 as the NATO standard cartridge.

BSW

 

[TIMC]

that keltec looks interesting, but im not looking for a 30 caliber.. its in my opinion that if im going with the extra weight and power of the .308, then id like the extra range that goes with it.. because close quarters/urban range the extra power offered just isnt worth the added weight

What makes you think it doesn't have range capabilities? The RFB sports an 18" barrel and is capable of good accuracy ant respectable ranges depending on the shooter. Here are a couple of pics on formerly live targets.

100 yards in rapid succession, head shots


150 yards neck shot


I am sure it would do quite well much farther, but if needed it would be an awesome CQB rifle as well.

 

[TIMC]

Friend of mine had a RFB. His never worked quite right after multiple trips to the factory for repair. He sold it after the last time it came back from KT.

The guy he sold it to had the gas block break within 400 rounds of him owning it.

I also had a catastrophic gas block failure with the 2nd round out of the gun and had to send mine back for repair but it has been 100% since then and a lot of rounds through the gun.

 

[Dave Rishar]

I really like the FS2000; more importantly, my girlfried loves the FS2000, so that will be the resident bullpup. It is a brilliant design with one possibly fatal flaw, due in part to something that the military model can have but mine cannot. I reviewed the rules and saw nothing preventing me from linking to my own post in another forum so if I am breaking a rule with this link, I apologize in advance.

My Thoughts

If you scroll down a bit past my initial meanderings, you'll see my complaint. In short, the sear disengages in the same linear plane as the bore, and without the BATF-blacklisted safety sear in place, this necessitates the use of very stiff springs to minimize (not prevent - that is impossible) AD's. You're left with a rifle with a very stiff trigger pull that can still discharge when the butt is slammed on the ground.

It bothered me enough that I considered designing a new trigger pack to eliminate this in Autocad. Unfortunately, I'm done with school and have neither access to Autocad-equipped computers nor the required knowledge to do this any more, and it's not like FN would simply give me all the dimensions over a phone call. I also wouldn't think that such a thing would be economically viable, as this is not exactly a huge market. But maybe one day, someone else will take up the challenge. I hope so.

A Neutrigger will not fix this, but it will make the trigger pull a bit better. Those proclaiming miracles do not own trigger pull gauges apparently.

I'd still recommend it, but only after trying it out first and keeping in mind its limitations.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

I'm waiting on the IMI Tavor to hit the LGS's.

 

[jason41987]

timc, the point is for a bullpup and cqb uses, a .308 would kind of be pointless for close range, point is you carry less rounds, more recoil, and its no more lethal at that range than a 5.56 or 6.8mm... the 308 simply excels at longer ranges but doesnt offer enough at close range to justify the lesser round capacity and weight.. for something cqb/close range id rather have something lighter on recoil for faster follow up shot with quicker target acquisition

ya know.. i do design my own rifles, designed a couple gas rifles and one lever-delayed blowback, in the time it takes prices to come down im going to work on designing my own... maybe ill design it to use off the shelf AR15 fire control parts, bolt assembly and barrels, of course designing new receivers, gas system, and bolt carrier

 

[TIMC]

I disagree with the right bullet it can be much more lethal than the 5.56, I am not bound by the Geneva convention!

 

[taliv]

Dave r. Interesting observation. I didn't know that.

 

[jason41987]

timc, its not whether or not the .308 is more lethal, everyone knows its by far more lethal, my point is for close range its a bit overkill when you consider you cant carry as much weight, and will have more recoil and slower follow up shots

 

[TIMC]

Did you notice the JP Enterprises muzzle brake on my RFB? She is almost nil on recoil and what there is comes straight back as a push, The two pigs in the first photo I posted are an example of rapid followup shots, both pigs downed before they even thought about running. They can be made to do quite well in the CQB roll.
I will concede the weight factor and yes capacity is less but not enough to be a real factor. Not trying to convince you to get one, go with what you like, the point I am making is the gun is not as bad as you seem to think. I have played with the MASR bullpup, and AR's in 5.7x28, .223, .6.5 Grendel, .308, even the Beowulf so I am well experienced in how they can perform. While I have never used them on humans and hope I never have to; I have done a lot of woods time taking game with them so I do have an idea of what kills easy and quick!

 

[jason41987]

i was looking for something specifically in 5.56mm though, wanted something to fire the standard issue round for most western countries, but i may consider it when i start shopping for a new .308 soon too

 

[TIMC]

I liked the MSAR E-4 I had but I found it wasn't all that much easier to deal with over an M-4 style AR so I sold it. I really liked that it took AR mags and I never had any issues with it. There are a few options out there, I'm sure you'll find what you want.

 

[jason41987]

i hear the pmags actually have a constant curvature on the inside which would make them as good as any other magazine with such a design such as the AUG mags... i could be wrong on this, but if its true, so long as someone stocked up on something like pmags that offer the full curvature, you could go with a standard ar15 style magwell and still have a reliable magazine?... its too bad the FS2000 hates anything but USGI mags

 

[jason41987]

maybe i could convert an SKS with a bullpup stock just to see how i get used to the layout after a couple months?

 

[TIMC]

That is probably the cheapest way to get into it. I lucked out with the MSAR I had I paid $1600 for it new and sold it for $2400 during this panic. The Kel Tec RFB was the same price so it was quite an investment getting started in bullpups. It was nice to recoupe some cash when I decided I didn't need the MSAR.

 

[jason41987]

yeah.. my only concerns with bullpups are the trigger pulls and the fact the weight is rearward causing the muzzle to climb more