Bullpup

[clance]

We always seem to read and see postings of pictures concerning your typical Black rifles but rarely do we see a posting for bullpups!

I've really not given the bullpup much thought up to this point. This has been chiefly due to their cost which has generally been prohibitive as well as other shortcomings of the design until recent (with a couple of exceptions), driven mostly by several militaries interest in a new urban combat rifle.

While the Steyr AUG has been around for years, and is the combat rifle of several nations. I decided to look at the Israel Weapon Industries new combat rifle, the Tavor. A fairly new design which has proven itself in the harsh environment of the Middle East. Though the trigger is notoriously heavy at 10 lbs. There are reports of aftermarket trigger groups that have been develop to drop this to 5 to 4 lbs. Other accessories for the Tavor has been rumored to be here in the near future.



IWI Tavor B18 with Aimport Comp M4s (soon to have a Crimson Trace MVF-515 GREEN Modular Vertical Foregrip)
CZ 75 SP-01 Phantom with Laserspeed Light w/Strobe and Green Laser

A comparison between the Tavor and a standard black rifle carbine.



IWI Tavor (18" barrel)
DSA SA58 Carbine (16" barrel)

 

[Ian]

Here's a neat one - and it's roller-locked! (well, roller-delayed blowback, actually)

 

[clance]

Here's a neat one - and it's roller-locked! (well, roller-delayed blowback, actually)

Is that the EM-2 British rifle?

 

[792mauser]

^^^^^^
Drool....
Is that the one that was fired in the video?

 

[Dr.Rob]

Wow that's Planet of the Apes worthy.

 

[max popenker]

Damn you, Ian, now I just have to post this one


and are you sure that EM-1 is delayed blowback rather than locked? IIRC it was gas operated gun...

 

[Vincent Price]

I've often wondered why Bullpup rifles aren't more common.

For hunting purposes in my opinion they are (or rather they could be) a lot more practical than e.g. an AR. You could get a well balanced rifle with a 20"-25" Barrel with a very short overall length.
If they were more common, if guns, parts and service were more readily available.

But there are rarely any Bullpups available that are fit for hunting. If you want something bigger than .223 there is virtually nothing on the market.
All I've ever found is the Keltec RFB which gets mixed reviews at best and the Desert Tactical Arms stuff which is so expensive you could just as well bribe the hogs into shooting themselves.

 

[wally]

There are reports of aftermarket trigger groups that have been develop to drop this to 5 to 4 lbs.

Believe it when you see it, if it was easy it'd have been done already, as I've yet to see a bullpup with a trigger that if on a $500 AR you'd hear nothing but how bad the trigger was no matter how great the rest of it is. At the bullpup price points people either overlook the flaw or don't buy in the first place.

I've often wondered why Bullpup rifles aren't more common.

Two main reasons, lousy triggers and the location of the chamber relative to your face if you worry about the possibility of a KaBoom! The high prices don't help either.

 

[Tirod]

The reality is that the bullpup offers very little for hunting. It's touted as being a neat way to get 20-25 inches of barrel. There's no real need for that much barrel hunting unless you are using a difficult to propel bullet that needs a lot of barrel length to stabilize for extremely long shots. In that regard, a conventional layout is no more difficult to use.

Most hunting shots are about the same as small arms combat, out to 150 meters. A 16 - 18" barrel will deliver in that range, and since most will be using a scope, the barrel length means nothing for sight radius.

The next item is balance, having the magazine closer to the shoulder apparently brings the weight back toward the body. And yet a lot of hunters use 5 round magazines, or deliberately download. Unless you are into feral population eradication, hunting with more than 8 rounds really is a bit unnecessary. But I do defend your right to do it where legal. Moot point, you need more ammo, carry another mag or two. Very few of us get to carry a half dozen deer tags and fill them in five minutes. The five hours getting them dressed out and back to the vehicle will be more than enough to convince us next time to think twice, fire once.

As for the trigger, most combat arms run 6-8 pounds, it's the fancy target guns that could use a light trigger for accuracy. A 2 minute of angle gun will shoot inside a ten inch square at 500 meters, it's highly arguable that having a 2 or 3 pound trigger pull will make the bullet more lethal or get placed more accurately. The optic and shooter will make a much bigger difference.

The dual tube shotgun bullpup has some reasonable improvements over the normal layout, but it also goes to what it might be needed to do. But the military sporting arm, not so much. And as a hunting rifle, it offers no real advantage whatsoever. The AR15 is it's equal in the hunting fields, and certainly more available and cheaper. The bullpup is much less easier to modify, the AR15 can be about 95% mail ordered and sent to your house.

Bullpups have been around since the the 80's for most older shooters, the Steyr AUG was available for a long time. And yet it's a rare item even today. Shooter interest is low - not because of the strange layout, but because it just doesn't do anything better, if at all. It's just another gun, and is some respects, it's not all that. Quick mag changes aren't possible, and there's no industry support because the public finds them unacceptable.

It doesn't make any real difference about barrel length, what most bullpup fans are agog over is that it's completely different and exotic. Kinda like rotary engines - you can if you want, but they don't really do things better. You still have to drive them on public roads under the speed limits, so effectively, they are just auto jewelry we wear on the way to work. Like most cars.

Or, like most guns on the range or out in the field.

It's the bullet that does the work. Like bait on the end of fishing line, the game has no appreciation of what we are using. Just if it works.

 

[TIMC]

It's touted as being a neat way to get 20-25 inches of barrel. There's no real need for that much barrel hunting unless you are using a difficult to propel bullet that needs a lot of barrel length to stabilize for extremely long shots.

There are other reasons for wanting to compress barrel length, like if there's a suppressor attached!

 

[JustinJ]

Believe it when you see it, if it was easy it'd have been done already, as I've yet to see a bullpup with a trigger that if on a $500 AR you'd hear nothing but how bad the trigger was no matter how great the rest of it is. At the bullpup price points people either overlook the flaw or don't buy in the first place.

http://www.timneytriggers.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=84

http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/guns/dta-srs-covert-sniper-rifle-chassis.html


The AUG and Tavor were not built to be sniper rifles and as such the triggers are suitable for intended use. However, there are aftermarket accessories to improve both for civilian use, but light triggers are not ideal for standard issue infantry rifles, which these rifles were intended to be. The full auto AUG trigger is quite interesting as it was designed so that a half pull gives you semi-auto and fully depressing it causes full auto. Aftermarket parts though have proven to improve the semi-auto version dramatically.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

My only Bullpup

 

[clance]

There are some that have question the bullpup use as a hunting weapon? Seeing that there are several different calibers available in the AR platform which was originally designed for the 5.56 NATO. I would guess that except for structural and material limitations that are used in the bullpups design, any caliber use in the AR should also be available to be adapted in the bullpup as well.

So in theory if the AR15 original design has had conversations from .22LR to the .50 Beowulf, in theory so should any bullpup designed to shoot the 5.56 NATO. After all there is no question of the ability of the Beowulf to bring down deer, boar, or bear. Again it comes down to whether or not the rifle as design both structurally and materially, is capable of handling such pressures and forces. There is also the 300 Blk AAC which is nothing more then a 5.56 NATO neck up to accept a .30 caliber bullet. Reports have sighted that this cartridge has the same ballistic properties as the 7.62x39mm which also is comparable to the Whitetail devastating 30-30. Seeing that some are offering the ability for the AR to shoot the 7.62x39mm cartridge. This would also mean it should have the ability to handle the superior ballistic and accuracy of the 6.5 Grendel with nothing more then a bolt and barrel change.

While I question if a bullpup will be capable to attain the accuracy necessary for mule deer or antelope hunting. It would be ideally suited for heavy brush hunting say like whitetail, bear, wild boar or feral pigs. IMO

 

[TIMC]

I think it is a more than adequate hunting platform. Proof is in the pudding so to speak!

 

[caribou]

The Russians have feild'd a Bullpup version of the SVD for quite a few years, supressed too.

That EM-2 had a unique cartridge, was it a .280? If I remember correct like, but Ian should have the answer to such a unique rifle/cartridge.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Most hunting shots are about the same as small arms combat, out to 150 meters. A 16 - 18" barrel will deliver in that range, and since most will be using a scope, the barrel length means nothing for sight radius

.

So a 16" to 18" barrel on a bullpup is not possible? You defeat your own argument - "since most will be using a scope, the barrel length means nothing for sight radius" which means why carry a conventional rifle if you can do the same thing with a handier tool that is just as accurate? There is no inherent trigger issue with a bullpup design that cannot be made acceptable for hunting and SD by application of ingenuity and commitment to design and marketing.

Bullpups have been around since the the 80's for most older shooters, the Steyr AUG was available for a long time. And yet it's a rare item even today. Shooter interest is low - not because of the strange layout, but because it just doesn't do anything better, if at all. It's just another gun, and is some respects, it's not all that. Quick mag changes aren't possible, and there's no industry support because the public finds them unacceptable.

Bullpups do, do something much better: they take up less space and are less prone to entangling. If you don't think that is significant you obviously do not understand why military rifles are shrinking in length beyond what can be accounted for by the de-emphasis of bayonet use and modern ammunition. Shooter interest is low because the right design has not yet captured their imagination due to expense, minor design issues, and ease of manufacture support. While Bullpup designs of military style rifles were not commonly available for civilians until the 1980's, the desire to create a Bullpup military rifle goes back at least to the 1901 Thorneycroft .303 carbine and the 1902 Webley and Scott Godsal System .303 rifle. "Quick mag changes aren't possible" - have you seen the mag change on the new Kel-Tec 5.56? Fast. Maybe this is one I have been waiting for all my life.

It doesn't make any real difference about barrel length, what most bullpup fans are agog over is that it's completely different and exotic. Kinda like rotary engines - you can if you want, but they don't really do things better. You still have to drive them on public roads under the speed limits, so effectively, they are just auto jewelry we wear on the way to work. Like most cars. Or, like most guns on the range or out in the field.

It's the bullet that does the work. Like bait on the end of fishing line, the game has no appreciation of what we are using. Just if it works.

Much truth about the "jewelry" factor and all truth about the bullet doing the work and the Game's lack of appreciation. I, however, am ready to buy the first Bullpup, that is well designed, because of the reduced length and handiness.

 

[Ian]

Nice photo, Max! As you noticed (but other folks didn't), it's an EM-1, which is even rarer than the EM-2 (which was actually formally adopted by the British Army for a very brief period). And you're right, is it roller locked and gas operated (shouldn't post before coffee!).

Your photo is the Styer ACR, right? Pretty sweet!

 

[Ian]

Just for kicks, here's another neat one...

 

[Nom de Forum]

Just for kicks, here's another neat one...

That is the 1901 Thorneycroft I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[wally]

Great photos Max & Ian I've never seen these before.

Max, yours would seem to explain what Bushmaster was trying to emulate with their 17S. Not a very good bullpup implementation.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Great photos Max & Ian I've never seen these before.

Max, yours would seem to explain what Bushmaster was trying to emulate with their 17S. Not a very good bullpup implementation.

YUCK! The one I tried out was awful. This thing has probably done more to hinder enthusiasm for Bullpups than any other design. You would be better off with an AR SBR or even AR pistol to gain the benefit of short length and handiness even if it came at the expense of reduced muzzle velocity.

 

[wally]

YUCK! The one I tried out was awful. This thing has probably done more to hinder enthusiasm for Bullpups than any other design.

I won't disagree with you! But its a nice conversation piece in the collection

 

[W L Johnson]

Two main reasons, lousy triggers and the location of the chamber relative to your face if you worry about the possibility of a KaBoom! The high prices don't help either.

IMHO the "lousy" trigger" is way over stated in most cases and most that are have easy fixes.

As far as KBs being worse in a bullpup than a conventional layout, after years of looking I've never found anything that would make me believe it's an issue to actually worry about. Note: Some of the conversions though do worry me but most of the "from the ground up" bullpups seem to have the issue thought out.

Higher prices are an issue but you have to consider the fact that only one company makes the Tavor, only one company makes the PS90, only one company makes the Aug, and so on. How many companies make AR-15s and AR-15 parts now?

 

[d2wing]

Bull pups are another good idea that has some merit. Who,doesn't want more barrel in a smaller package. There are drawbacks. The main one being they do not point as naturally as a normal stocked rifle.

 

[W L Johnson]

Bull pups are another good idea that has some merit. Who,doesn't want more barrel in a smaller package. There are drawbacks. The main one being they do not point as naturally as a normal stocked rifle.

We would have to agree to disagree on that one, I find many bullpulls to point very naturally and quickly, the Tavor for example. One thing I will have to give you though in that area is the fact that most bullpups do have a higher sight height over bore. Proper training should be able to neutralize that for the most part though.