Bullpups: The new hotness or the new Colt 2000?

[briansmithwins]

When I was recently shopping for a new 5.56 the final candidates were the FS2000 and the Sig 556. I went with the Sig in the end and am pretty happy with it but I got to thinking: Would we all be better with bullpupped longarms?

The advantage of bullpups are obvious:
Longer barrel in a shorter OAL.

Disadvantages that I've discovered might not be so obvious:
Rearward center of gravity.
You're stuck with either a handed rifle or a long ejection chute.
Difficult to access action in case of stoppage.
Crap triggers.
Awkward reloads.

What say ye? Did I screw up buying the Sig 556 instead of a FS2000 or waiting for the Tavor?

BSW

 

[MachIVshooter]

I really like the bullpup concept, but for the most part, it has not been well executed. The Steyr was probably the best so far, though I haven't yet played with an RFB, so withholding judgement there.

I personally found the FS2000 a bit awkward and chunky, didn't really care for it. I would have done what you did, too. Of course, I prefer a standard AR platform to all the other 5.56mm rifles out there.

 

[wally]

Not in my opinion, I've lots of bullpups in my collection, but its because I collect, not because of their "features".

Biggest negative for shooting is the triggers are generally lousy, the best might equal the AR trigger from a DPMS parts kit. Biggest negative for any serious use is the the difficult access to the action in case of stoppage.

I do like the short overall length and handling. The FS2000 always feels awkward to me, until I start shooting it. I'd have to rate it the best of the civilian available bullpups right now, although I would like the Kel-Tec RFB better if it was reliable.

 

[Comedian]

I'll posit that reloading isn't awkward so much as it requires re-training if all you're familiar with is traditionally configured rifles. That, and I like the center of gravity on the bullpups I've handled.

Of the choices you listed I'd have gone with the FS2000, even with the terrible trigger I love that gun. That and I wouldn't bother waiting for the Tavor since, as far as I know, it doesn't do anything that hasn't been done before with the bullpup concept.

 

[henschman]

Another downside for bullpups is that they usually have very short sight radius. For someone like me who likes to do a lot of iron sight shooting, they suck.

 

[Rexster]

I like the concept of the FN bullpups, as they are lefty-friendly and the ejection does not require dedicated left- or right-hand use, making transition during a fight less problematic. A bullpup is compact without having to collapse a stock, making it especially handy inside a vehicle or other tight space. Thus far, however, my liking the concept has not prompted me to purchase a bullpup.

If my employer, a PD, had authorized either or both FN bull pups as patrol carbines, that might have been the push I needed to purchase one. For now and the foreseeable future, my chief only approves the AR15 and Mini-14, so no bullpup for me, yet.

 

[JustinJ]

I think the AUG is an awesome gun. The 5.56 is meant for speed and the bullpup allows for a longer barrel with reduced OAL. Yeah, the triggers aren't great but suitable for general issue, ecspecially with the newer mods available. Bullpups are also great platforms for sound suppressors as their balance is not disrupted by the forward weight and they can be shot one handed with ease. The AUG quick change barrel is also a great benefit allowing for modularity of barrel length and caliber. Conversion for lefties is also quick and easy.

 

[B!ngo]

I think the AUG is an awesome gun. The 5.56 is meant for speed and the bullpup allows for a longer barrel with reduced OAL. Yeah, the triggers aren't great but suitable for general issue, ecspecially with the newer mods available. Bullpups are also great platforms for sound suppressors as their balance is not disrupted by the forward weight and they can be shot one handed with ease. The AUG quick change barrel is also a great benefit allowing for modularity of barrel length and caliber. Conversion for lefties is also quick and easy.

I'm a huge proponent of the bullpup (BP) design. Short length or long barreled, quick to maneuver, readily ambi'd (I'm LH'ed). Overall, IMHO a significant improvement over the classic rifle/carbine design.
Seems to me that the gun community is typically slow to adopt new-think, and understandably so. A rifle or pistol is such a tactile thing, where training is required to induce a second-natured use of the tool. And reliability is something that has to be proven over many years of use, due to the incredibly low level of acceptable failure.
I recently had to make the same choice for my first .223/5.56 rifle and, though I wanted the FN, I went with a (LH) AR design. I figured I had more people from whom to seek advice while it was new to me. But I'm sure I will ultimately trade it for a FS2000 or a Tavor.
B

 

[pikid89]

Imo, bullpups are nice for cqb type riflery but i think they suck for long range type shooting. As an instructor with project appleseed, I had a chance to shoot an RFB at an AQT. Getting into a solid prone position was one of the most awkward things ive ever done...and thats coming from someone who thinks slung up prone behind a garand is "comfortable"

 

[MachIVshooter]

Getting into a solid prone position was one of the most awkward things ive ever done

I can see that with a 20 rounder, but I don't imagine there'd be any problems with a 10 round mag. And a decent bi-pod should mitigate the mag issue, even with the standard one.

 

[Walkalong]

the Sig 556

Got to shoot one the other day. They are really nice. Has me coveting one.

 

[mljdeckard]

I think they were very futuristic. 25 years ago. I think they had their chance, and couldn't make it. Like others have said, it is difficult to make a good trigger for them, and honestly.....what will it do that an M-4 won't do?

 

[goon]

The bullpup is a pretty aged concept at this point. Very little is truly "new" in firearms design. I don't know if it will take off, but I wouldn't be surprised if it continues to make resurgences.
Another factor that will affect their success is price. You can have a new high-quality M-4 clone or AR-15 for around $1,000 these days and have all the $12 magazines for it you can afford. Any rifle in the same class will need to be able to compete with that or it's going to get left behind.

 

[-v-]

Also, like the RFB shows, you can get a good trigger pull, just have to be imaginative. IIRC the RFB puts the sear of the gun right there in the front next the trigger, and then a link connects it the hammer in the back.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Usually the aim of these rifles is for tactical work, a good trigger isn't really needed that much.

 

[C'Thulhu]

I'd have taken the FS2000 over the 556, or any .223 caliber firearm. It is the greatest gun I have ever purchased, bad trigger or not (though the RFB is a very close 2nd).

 

[Robert]

I can not stand bullpup rifles. I have never seen one that anywhere near a decent trigger and I just find them not to my liking at all. But hey that is why we have choices. I'll keep my AR thanks.

 

[zfk55]

I've had a Valmet M82 since my Father gave it to me in the mid-90s. He was a Valmet dealer in the early 80's and bought a lot of them.
I love that rifle. It has an Armson OEG on it.

 

[JustinJ]

I think they were very futuristic. 25 years ago. I think they had their chance, and couldn't make it.

Tell that to the Brits with the L85, French with the Famas, Brits and Aussies with the AUG. All are still general issue and in front line use to this day to my knowledge. The PS90 is also a new and in use bullpup. Singapore and Israel also have a bullpup in use. The bullpup is not dead and i bet will only become more common.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

with the AUG.

Austria itself uses it too. The Belgium are switching to the F2000 eventually and their special forces use it now. Russia has a few bullpups in military service too.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I think the bullpup is a good idea that has yet to be debugged. It's possible that the RFB is finally the few-compromises bullpup, but I haven't shot one and there are precious few reviews or RFBs in average joe hands.

I have shot the FS2000 and PS90, own a Walther G22, and have handled the Steyr and the Bushmaster M17S, as well as some old bullpup shotgun whose name I forget. Issues with ejection, reloading, and triggers are all problems. The PS90 addresses two of those but people who use them (or, really, the 10" P90) in real life apparently teach and train to use an entire magazine on each target due to the limited effectiveness of that round. Not so good. Everything on my list has a poor trigger, and everything but the PS90 has difficult reloading. The front ejection on the FS2000 and RFB seems great, but I wonder how you clear any jam that develops.

The Walther G22 is a cool little plinker, but in just ordinary shooting I occasionally get the side of my face pelted with junk coming out of the ejection port that somehow comes out at an angle towards my face (right hand ejection, and I'm shooting it right handed - should not be happening). I don't think it would be fun to have centerfire cases ejecting that close to my face. The FNs I shot had front (FS2000) and bottom (PS90) ejection, which at least addresses that issue.

Tell that to the Brits with the L85, French with the Famas, Brits and Aussies with the AUG. All are still general issue and in front line use to this day to my knowledge. The PS90 is also a new and in use bullpup. Singapore and Israel also have a bullpup in use. The bullpup is not dead and i bet will only become more common.

With the possible exceptions of Israel and Singapore, most/all of those nations armies have their elite units using M16/M4 types or derivatives. I find that telling.

 

[jason41987]

ill side with those that do not like bullpups either... militaries like the UK, france, issue bullpups because theyre easier for new recruits to learn on... easier to get the hang of, but to someone who practices regularly, their flaws are more pronounced.. better to stick with a more conventional layout... sig 556 is pretty nice, basically an improved kalashnikov action (and AKs do need an improvement).. and although ill never waste another dime on an AK, the sig is much better

 

[wally]

The front ejection on the FS2000 and RFB seems great, but I wonder how you clear any jam that develops.

The FS2000 has at least thought about it, there is a trapdoor that exposes the rear of the chamber and extractor elevator mechanism. My FS2000 has been reliable enough that I don't have any idea how adequate it really is for any jams that might develop.

On the RFB if the empty and/or mis fed round don't come out when you yank out the magazine you're dead unless you have time to push out the take down pins and disassemble, clear, and reassemble. My RFB has proven this system is not adequate for any serious use.

IMHO the RFB has the best trigger yet of any of the bullpups I've shot and I really like the way it handles, but its lack of reliability (despite being back to Kel-Tec three times) makes it a range toy only. Its totally un-impressive off sandbags with groups typically twice the size up/ down compared to left/right (vertical stringing), whats weird is I can usually shoot better groups kneeling or sitting than I do off sandbags and the vertical stringing is basically gone. Maybe the gas piston venting affects the shot when the forend is on a sandbag.

 

[PercyShelley]

As Oleg Volk is fond of pointing out, forward ejection was used in the Maxim MGs from over a century ago. It's hardly an untested novelty.

In fact, it occurred to me while fooling around with an F2000 that it might actually be more reliable than conventional side ejection because the mechanism never lets go of the case. In conventional side ejection the ejector kicks the case loose of the extractor and the case is ballistically sent from the receiver. There's nothing positively kicking the case out of the path of the bolt carrier group at that point. The receiver might jolt, the bolt carrier group might come back a little faster than normal, etc etc etc. There is a small, but measurable chance that an FTE occurs during this floating phase.

In the F2000's forward ejection, the case is always held by something, be it the extractor, the switch or the little ratchet at the top of the tube that catches the case head. If the BCG short-strokes or if something breaks the case won't go where intended, but otherwise it has to.

On top of that, the ejection port is much smaller and further away from the breech mechanism, which in theory would mean less of a chance for dust and grit to get in. I say in theory because in the F2000 the cutout for the charging handle exposes the moving parts to the outside elements (seriously, you can see the return spring through that hole). I find this to be a very strange design choice, considering that FN went to the effort of putting a rubber gasket in the magazine well to completely seal it against the elements.

 

[wally]

In fact, it occurred to me while fooling around with an F2000 that it might actually be more reliable than conventional side ejection because the mechanism never lets go of the case.

"never" is an awfully strong word, especially dealing with mechanical things that happen in less than the blink of an eye. At least the FS200 designers realized you might need access to the chamber area in the event of a failure of some sort. As I said, I've yet to have an issue with my FS2000 so I can't assess if the access port is adequate for any failures that might happen.

Kel-Tec seems to have believed in a "never" for the RFB that has happened way too often.

Both have only been used in benign range conditions, so no failures with my FS2000 doesn't really mean much, but the RFB failures are distressing.