Bump in the night belt

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I question the very premise of this thread. I’m not about to go wandering around investigating noises and presenting myself as a target. If there’s a shootable threat in my house then let him come to me so I can engage at my maximum advantage.

I thought it was pretty well settled that you don’t go looking to get yourself shot in your own house?
 
I question the very premise of this thread. I’m not about to go wandering around investigating noises and presenting myself as a target. If there’s a shootable threat in my house then let him come to me so I can engage at my maximum advantage.

I thought it was pretty well settled that you don’t go looking to get yourself shot in your own house?

Not sure what you mean exactly. If you hear an unexpected noise, what are you going to do? Stay in your bedroom with your gun and call the police and hope they get there in time to keep whoever just broke in from killing, kidnapping, or raping your children in other rooms?

That is not acceptable to me.
 
I question the very premise of this thread. I’m not about to go wandering around investigating noises and presenting myself as a target. If there’s a shootable threat in my house then let him come to me so I can engage at my maximum advantage.

I thought it was pretty well settled that you don’t go looking to get yourself shot in your own house?

Ideally, yes. Agreed 100%. If I hear the door or window open and can position myself between the potential threat and my family, I'll simply post up and hope they are satisfied with the goodies they can cart off quickly before I ever actually see them. But what if they enter quickly enough I don't have time? What if they, for some reason, enter through the second floor where my kids are? Would you still advise standing pat?

Worst case scenario, there is a potential threat upstairs with my kids. I am downstairs. Do I really want to go in with nothing but the gun in my hands? I'd like to be able to see, so I have a light. Most of us carry autoloaders and magazines are the most common cause of failures. So I carry a reload. Once I am with my family, I'm not going out hunting more problems. So I have a spare key on a chemlight to throw down to responding officers. Holster for my handgun should I want or need to stow it.

Just four things. I'm not going back to the M.E. any time soon (ever), so that's all I need. Slung over my shoulder bandolier style because most belts don't work well with no belt loops (I've not found skivvies with belt loops).
 
There is no constitutional right to have your thread closed. In case you haven’t noticed there is constructive discussion going on in a couple sidebars this thread has generated and more constructive posts on the original topic.
 
I question the very premise of this thread. I’m not about to go wandering around investigating noises and presenting myself as a target. If there’s a shootable threat in my house then let him come to me so I can engage at my maximum advantage.

I thought it was pretty well settled that you don’t go looking to get yourself shot in your own house?
"Police, fire or ambulance....?"

Police

"Name [address etc]...?"
......

"And what is the problem...?"

Uh, a noise woke me up

"What kind of noise..?"

I don't know

"Anything else, do you hear any more noise?"

No

If I called the police everytime "a noise woke me up" I would have been calling them probably once a month at least, maybe once a week. Yeah if something were to really happen they would come, but probably long after I really needed them.

Anyone who has kids, pets or other people living in the same household, dog(s) outside etc is going to be woken up now and then. It could be a raccoon or possum. If you call for police assistance everytime it does, they are going to get tired of it. They'll come, they might even be polite, but it'll probably be slowroll after the first half dozen times of "wolf".
 
Not sure what you mean exactly. If you hear an unexpected noise, what are you going to do? Stay in your bedroom with your gun and call the police and hope they get there in time to keep whoever just broke in from killing, kidnapping, or raping your children in other rooms?

That is not acceptable to me.

I don’t have children in other rooms.

"Police, fire or ambulance....?"

Police

"Name [address etc]...?"
......

"And what is the problem...?"

Uh, a noise woke me up

"What kind of noise..?"

I don't know

"Anything else, do you hear any more noise?"

No

If I called the police everytime "a noise woke me up" I would have been calling them probably once a month at least, maybe once a week. Yeah if something were to really happen they would come, but probably long after I really needed them.

Anyone who has kids, pets or other people living in the same household, dog(s) outside etc is going to be woken up now and then. It could be a raccoon or possum. If you call for police assistance everytime it does, they are going to get tired of it. They'll come, they might even be polite, but it'll probably be slowroll after the first half dozen times of "wolf".

Where did I say anything about calling the police every time I hear a noise? Police response time where I live is probably 15+ minutes. I’m on my own, which is why I don’t want to give someone an extra advantage to shoot me.
 
For those that would restrain someone, and who aren’t law enforcement, what are some specific, exact scenarios in which you’d feel like you have to restrain someone?

I’m guessing that for a bad guy I encounter in my house:

1. They’re leaving.

2. They’re incapacitated.

3. I’m incapacitated.

Does castle doctrine play into how some of you view this?

From my reading of the Wisconsin law and more than a few scholarly articles by attorneys, someone just being in my home uninvited is presumed justification to use lethal force - no weapon needed, no verbal threats or even assault needs to happen, their mere presence is assumed to put the homeowner in fear for their life. Interestingly, civil immunity applies.

What I can’t answer right now is if detaining someone in your own home is part of that. If I detain a scumbag and he bleeds out, is that covered by castle doctrine?

I don’t think I’d risk it myself - trying to zip tie a guy I’ve just shot in my house. Too much can go wrong being that close.
 
I don’t have children in other rooms.



Where did I say anything about calling the police every time I hear a noise? Police response time where I live is probably 15+ minutes. I’m on my own, which is why I don’t want to give someone an extra advantage to shoot me.
Ok. So how long are you going to sit in your bedroom if you are woken up in the night by a strange noise. Me, when that happens, I find out what it is, otherwise, even if I wait 5, 10 minutes or more and don't hear anything else, I am not going to able to get back to sleep.
 
For those that would restrain someone, and who aren’t law enforcement, what are some specific, exact scenarios in which you’d feel like you have to restrain someone?

I’m guessing that for a bad guy I encounter in my house:

1. They’re leaving.

2. They’re incapacitated.

3. I’m incapacitated.

Does castle doctrine play into how some of you view this?

From my reading of the Wisconsin law and more than a few scholarly articles by attorneys, someone just being in my home uninvited is presumed justification to use lethal force - no weapon needed, no verbal threats or even assault needs to happen, their mere presence is assumed to put the homeowner in fear for their life. Interestingly, civil immunity applies.

What I can’t answer right now is if detaining someone in your own home is part of that. If I detain a scumbag and he bleeds out, is that covered by castle doctrine?

I don’t think I’d risk it myself - trying to zip tie a guy I’ve just shot in my house. Too much can go wrong being that close.
There are two issues here, basically. Not everything, just basically.

If someone has done something to warrant your use of deadly force, they have committed a felony in your presence (against you, a third party). In my jurisdiction a citizen's arrest is quite lawful for felonies committed in your presence or view (and certain misdemeanors). A Peace Officer can transport, book into jail etc.

The second main issue is safety. Peace Officers routingly cuff/restrain people "for their safety" even if they are injured etc. If you have someone in your home who you have justifiably shot, there might be circumstances - more than one badguy in the house, other family other parts of the house, etc - where restraining might be a good idea. It is a risky procedure, even if you think they are unconscious or incapable of any other actions. So a decision to do this can only be based on your circumstances and judgement.
 
I certainly didn't mean to derail the thread, I just mentioned what was on my gear. For perspective; the flex cuffs are by far the least important item...I wouldn't call them an "afterthought," but close...I suspect my odds of using them somewhere near zero, just above being in a multiple threat HD scenario in the 1st place.

2nd, for me, I couldn't care less about "restraining" or "detaining" someone in a LE, legal, "citizen's arrest" manner. I'd love it if they all just ran away.

However; there are some serious big-time assumptions being made in this thread about both the state of an intruder after you have engaged them (I deliberately didn't say "shot") and your certain knowledge of their state.

The following is prefaced by the fact that an instant earlier you were in a life or death, close quarters, night time, deadly force situation and are under a full adrenaline dump: How could you know if you shot that you hit them? Hit them in a vital area? Their state of consciousness? Their ability to still be a threat? Are they faking? Are they surrendering...only to decide to be back in the fight once you turn your back on them? (and their buddies charge up the stairs?) 8/10 people shot by handguns survive. Some people shot by rifles go on to win the MOH. You can't know their physical and psychological state with any certainty in the heat of the moment...(unless it's that obvious, but then problem solved).

If a person is down and no longer a threat at the moment (maybe shot, maybe "hands up don't shoot" seeming to give up) and they are between you and loved ones you feel a need to get to, how would you handle that?

There are no right/wrong answers and many other options, but I think the assumptions that the intruder will either be obviously incapacitated, or have run away, or you would have shot them more (and had a chance to legally do so before they were no longer posing a threat) is myopic at best. Watch LE shootings, perps get shot all the time and continue to move, continue threatening gestures etc. for quite awhile, quite often. It's different with lots of other LE officers holding them at gunpoint and able to control the situation, you'll have none of that.

It is most important to have thought through these things ahead realistically (which is the reason for the OP) and come up with a plan. A belt or armor/plate carrier with a light & spare mag makes a lot of sense to me. Even if you are in a barricade position (highly recommended), you'll still have items at hand in the dark even as you move and make use of cover. If you have to really move, well, there you go. If you don't have time to grab it, again that takes care of itself and it doesn't hurt anything to have had it.
 
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Ok. So how long are you going to sit in your bedroom if you are woken up in the night by a strange noise. Me, when that happens, I find out what it is, otherwise, even if I wait 5, 10 minutes or more and don't hear anything else, I am not going to able to get back to sleep.
Just the opposite. If I don’t hear anything else I go back to sleep. If it’s a person in the house they will continue making noise. In that case I may have to do something about it.
 
Just the opposite. If I don’t hear anything else I go back to sleep. If it’s a person in the house they will continue making noise. In that case I may have to do something about it.
They'll continue making noise? That's an assumption.
 
They'll continue making noise? That's an assumption.

Unless I'm being invaded by ninjas. It's not a quiet house.

Assuming a noise is a bad guy is also an assumption.

Look, if you want to go on a Rambo mission and go room clearing through your house then knock yourself out. I prefer not to give some meth head the opportunity to ambush me in my own living room. If there's a murderer in my house I don't plan to make it easier for them. Feel free to do otherwise.
 
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I question the very premise of this thread.
The "premise" was not made clear.

I’m not about to go wandering around investigating noises and presenting myself as a target. If there’s a shootable threat in my house then let him come to me so I can engage at my maximum advantage.
Good thinking!

I thought it was pretty well settled that you don’t go looking to get yourself shot in your own house?
That is, of course what most people who know the subject advise, and yes, it has been discussed here at great length over the last ten years or so.

If you hear an unexpected noise, what are you going to do? Stay in your bedroom with your gun and call the police and hope they get there in time to keep whoever just broke in from killing, kidnapping, or raping your children in other rooms?

That is not acceptable to me.
Really? Putting yourself at an unnecessary risk of getting shot is somehow more acceptable to you?

If I called the police everytime "a noise woke me up" I would have been calling them probably once a month at least, maybe once a week. Yeah if something were to really happen they would come, but probably long after I really needed them.

Anyone who has kids, pets or other people living in the same household, dog(s) outside etc is going to be woken up now and then. It could be a raccoon or possum. If you call for police assistance everytime it does, they are going to get tired of it.
Again, this has been discussed ad nauseam, and no one recommends calling "every time you hear a noise". You evaluate the noise first, and then decide what to do.

From my reading of the Wisconsin law and more than a few scholarly articles by attorneys, someone just being in my home uninvited is presumed justification to use lethal force - no weapon needed, no verbal threats or even assault needs to happen, their mere presence is assumed to put the homeowner in fear for their life.
The law does provide such a presumption, but it is rebuttable, and it is incumbent upon the defender to use appropriate caution and judgment before trying to rely on that layman's interpretation of the law.

Interestingly, civil immunity applies.
If, and only if, you are an officer of the court, and it provides immunity only against remedies against you associated with accusations that you violated the Fourth Amendment.

If someone has done something to warrant your use of deadly force, they have committed a felony in your presence (against you, a third party). In my jurisdiction a citizen's arrest is quite lawful for felonies committed in your presence or view (and certain misdemeanors).
It may well be lawful, bit it is very dangerous, it creates serious liability, and it exposes the resident to the risk of unlawfully using excessive force.

The second main issue is safety.
That should be your first issue, and trying to restrain someone by yourself is not safe at all. It is the province of the naive.

Assuming a noise is a bad guy is also an assumption.
Yes it is, and a number of people have found to their horror that that assumption was a bad one.

If there's a murderer in my house I don't plan to make it easier for them. Feel free to do otherwise.
Good thinking.

People seem to be thinking in terms of guns, flex cuffs, and flashlights. Think first in terms of security cameras, and you will be a whole lot better off.

Those who have engaged in indoor confrontations in FoF exercises in a shoot house, even one that one knows like the back of his hand, know very well that the defender who goes looking for the threat is very likely to lose just about every time.
 
If, and only if, you are an officer of the court, and it provides immunity only against remedies against you associated with accusations that you violated the Fourth Amendment.

I meant the castle doctrine law in WI provides civil immunity to someone (not LE) who is found to have acted within the scope of the castle doctrine statute. Homeowner shoots someone unlawfully in their home, the unlawful entrant or their family cannot sue the homeowner.
 
I meant the castle doctrine law in WI provides civil immunity to someone (not LE) who is found to have acted within the scope of the castle doctrine statute.
My mistake. I was thinking of qualified immunity.

Homeowner shoots someone unlawfully in their home, the unlawful entrant or their family cannot sue the homeowner.
Oh yes they can! What the law does is provide a mechanism for the suit to be thrown out by the court, provided that the homeowner can convince to the judge with a preponderance of the evidence that the act was lawfully justified.

"Lawfully justified" means that the homeowner had a basis for a reason to believe at the time that deadly force had been immediately necessary.

The fact of a person's unlawful presence in the home can go a long way toward justification, but it may not suffice.

Review these:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...y-civil-immunity-and-the-use-of-force.722692/

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...stand-your-ground-and-castle-doctrine.718860/
 
I meant the castle doctrine law in WI provides civil immunity to someone (not LE) who is found to have acted within the scope of the castle doctrine statute. Homeowner shoots someone unlawfully in their home, the unlawful entrant or their family cannot sue the homeowner.
This is not true. Not true at all. It's a common misconception that those laws prevent a lawsuit from being filed. THEY DON'T!! The clerk of the court will still accept the complaint provided the filing fee is paid. Then YOU THE DEFENDANT can file a motion to have the complaint dismissed based on the law giving you immunity. So you still have to hire an attorney and file your response. And if the plaintiff thinks that something in your case would make it not covered in the scope of the law then they can argue that the immunity shouldn't apply.

The immunity in the law will stop many attorneys from filing to start with, but it's not a guarantee, especially if they think they can get the immunity claim thrown out.
 
Yes, anyone can sue anyone for anything. I should’ve spelled that out I guess.
 
I am sort of shocked that people would rather let an intruder murder, kidnap, or rape children and family members in other rooms of the house than to try and stop it.

I guess it is a safer course of action, though, so if you are concerned about self preservation, holding up and letting whatever happens to the rest of the family happen, would be a good strategy. Too bad for the kids though.
 
I am sort of shocked that people would rather let an intruder murder, kidnap, or rape children and family members in other rooms of the house than to try and stop it.

I guess it is a safer course of action, though, so if you are concerned about self preservation, holding up and letting whatever happens to the rest of the family happen, would be a good strategy. Too bad for the kids though.
Please quote the post where someone advocated for this.

“I heard a noise” and “someone’s raping my family” are two entirely different things. Ease up on the drama a bit.
 
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I am sort of shocked that people would rather let an intruder murder, kidnap, or rape children and family members in other rooms of the house that to try and stop it.
Who on Earth would do that?

I would not plan on holding up in my bedroom while that happened.
Nor is that recommended. In discussion after discussion on this subject here, the importance of getting other to safety has been emphasized.

But the plan, which should be discussed among family members and rehearsed, should provide for a way of making the others safe in case the head of the family is shot will heading out into the hall or other rooms.
 
Kleanbore, I guess I don't understand your statement in post 66:

I had said:

"If you hear an unexpected noise, what are you going to do? Stay in your bedroom with your gun and call the police and hope they get there in time to keep whoever just broke in from killing, kidnapping, or raping your children in other rooms? That is not acceptable to me."

And then you said:

"Really? Putting yourself at an unnecessary risk of getting shot is somehow more acceptable to you?"

To which I would now respond, yes, putting myself at risk of getting shot is better than standing by and letting harm come to my children.
 
To which I would now respond, yes, putting myself at risk of getting shot is better than standing by and letting harm come to my children.
See Post #73.

How would you expect to prevent harm to your children if you do get shot?

If your children are not yet old enough to defend themselves and you have to get to then to protect them, you can minimize (1) the risk of your being killed or disabled and (2) the likelihood of your shooting the wrong person, by acquiring a bit of modern technology that will tell you who, if anyone, is in the house, and where, before you commit an irreversible blunder.
 
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