Burglary victim to go to jail

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With some Witherspoons in my family tree, I've always felt privileged to tease the Scots and the Irish:

"No Irishman is ever drunk, so long as he can cling to a blade of grass to keep from falling off the earth."

:), Art
 
The dividing line is when the majority decides to deprive anyone of fundamental human rights. One of the purposes of our Bill of Rights is to enumerate those items that cannot occur, even if a majority votes for them.
The same with our constitution, but we didn't draft in an RKBA to it as we were still trying to disarm from a civil war at the time. Different culture, different priorities, as I said earlier. So if there isn't a civil right to own a firearm, and 2.9 million versus .1 million of the people with a vote say that you need a licence, but after that you can have just about anything provided you won't be a danger to others with it, I don't see it as tyranny, but as a reasonable comprimise. In the US, I can imagine some people having a stroke at the very idea, but it's different here.

The "irishmen are drunkards" thing is lame stereotype
If you mean "all irishmen", yes - but if you mean "alcohol abuse is not a problem in Ireland", no.

If people get drunk and do irrisponsible things with guns, punish them. Dont punish people before any crime has been committed.
There's also the argument that handing out firearms willy-nilly when you know there's a very good chance they'll cause serious problems which will lead to casualties, is punishing people for other people's irresponsible acts. Like I said - you don't throw petrol on a fire while trying to put it out.

And now after centuries of hard-fought armed struggles to preserve their freedom from foreign and domestic tyranny, they have a socialist government that is voluntarily ceding the sovereignity of the British isles to the continent.
Not in the way you're thinking. The EU's not a foreign government, it's more like the federal government in the US, except with looser ties than the States have in the US.

I guess if the British are going to give up all the things they might possibly need guns for and choose to become slaves to the State and to criminals, then there really is no need for anyone to have weapons.
Actually, the average state of firearms law in the EU is much less strict than in the UK. Put it this way - if you were to replace UK law with EU law, everyone in the UK would get their pistols back overnight, as well as SLRs and a few other things as well. So it's not all black and white.
 
The EU's not a foreign government, it's more like the federal government in the US, except with looser ties than the States have in the US.

Say hello to my leetle friend, Abraham Lincoln. The US was once much looser than the EU is now. Everything starts off this way. And I would remind you that what you just described is a complete abdication of sovreignity, which is what the US civil war accomplished in the south.

And this isnt even touching the far worse starting point of the EU Charter vs the US constitution. There is neither a right to free speech nor a right to bear arms. Almost all of the "rights" are economic in nature- obligations of government and business to the proletariat.

You guys are setting yourselves up to take a hard fall. Wait till all the Turks move to Britain and live on the dole, exercising their right to withhold labor.

the argument that handing out firearms willy-nilly

Please. There is a very large gap between "issuing to people who are not prohibited" and "issuing to everyone." Even the most minimalist background checks to exclude violent felons and the insane have been shown to provide virtually 100% success rates in excluding villains from the CCW programs.

we were still trying to disarm from a civil war at the time

No you werent. The English civil war was in the mid 17th century. The right to keep and bear arms was on solid legal footing until after WWII when the home office began to roll it back in earnest. The civil war in the UK was a great deal earlier even than the American revolution which itself was based upon principles that Blackstone wrote about during the middle of the 18th century, long after things in the UK had settled down after Cromwell.
 
I wish we could vote the American IRS, ATF and DEA out of office, but that just never seems to come up for a vote.

Their budgets and agent size come up every year for a vote in Congress by representatives elected by the citizens of the USA. Having things not go the way you want them to in a vote is not the same as not having a vote.
 
Sparks,

Er, not to rag, but six pints of guinness here and six glasses of beer in the US are rather different amounts of alcohol...

Maybe 10 years ago. :rolleyes: We drink our beer by the pint up here, and it ain't no 3.2% crud. We ain't wimpy mass-market beer drinkers like them sissys down South. :neener: (back atcha :D )

Beerslurpy,

I think he was talking more of Fenians than Roundheads in reference to the "civil war."
 
So if there isn't a civil right to own a firearm, and 2.9 million versus .1 million of the people with a vote say that you need a licence, but after that you can have just about anything provided you won't be a danger to others with it, I don't see it as tyranny, but as a reasonable comprimise. In the US, I can imagine some people having a stroke at the very idea, but it's different here.

Has or hasn't Ireland had a "de facto" ban on private ownership of most firearms for most of it's recent history? You stated on this very thread that it was only a few months ago that you "got your pistols back".

I don't see it as tyranny, but as a reasonable comprimise

Which do you see as a reasonable compromise? And is it reasonable that this already heavily qualified right can be revoked at any time in the misguided interests of protecting another nation from themselves?
 
Agricola:
Had he had a 12-guage pump-action shotgun loaded with buckshot, there'd be no charge against him. But a .32 pistol is illegal to own in the UK at the moment (unless you're in Northern Ireland), and that's the charge he's guilty of. It's got nothing to do with his right to self defence, which is intact and untouched.
Well I dont know many mail slots big enough to accomodate a 12ga pump action.

Sparks:
Er, not to rag, but six pints of guinness here and six glasses of beer in the US are rather different amounts of alcohol...
Guinness: 4.2% alcohol by volume.
Budwieser: 5% alcohol by volume.
British pint: 20oz
American pint: 16oz (the way beer is now served in most reputable establishments, one place I go to even does proper British pints of their microbrew)
4.2*20*1.04=84 (1 British fluid oz is equal to 1.04 American fluid oz)
87.36/16/5=1.092
Thats only 9% more alcohol per pint consumed in Britain over a pint consumed in the US. I dont think that makes much of a difference. And who drinks 6 pints unless they're trying to get drunk? My limit is about 3 pints of good microbrew before I start to really feel it and wouldnt consider driving for the rest of the evening.

Kharn
 
And this isnt even touching the far worse starting point of the EU Charter vs the US constitution. There is neither a right to free speech nor a right to bear arms.
First of all, the EU constitution is still being drafted. Secondly, you feel a right to keep and bear arms works for you - fine. Don't go about demanding that everyone else does things your way though, it undermines your stated belief in the right of a person to live their life the way they want. We're going to get a vote on whether or not we want the constitution presented. If the majority accept it, that's the way it goes.

Please. There is a very large gap between "issuing to people who are not prohibited" and "issuing to everyone." Even the most minimalist background checks to exclude violent felons and the insane have been shown to provide virtually 100% success rates in excluding villains from the CCW programs.
Maybe it works for you in the US (though there are those that differ in view, and there's no definitive answer outside of a pub discussion that I've ever seen). That doesn't mean it's going to work here, where we've had an active terrorist problem for the past 30 years where the terrorists are nearly indistinguishable from the civilians.

No you werent. The English civil war was in the mid 17th century.
Yeah, and ours was in 1922.

Maybe 10 years ago. We drink our beer by the pint up here, and it ain't no 3.2% crud.
Glad to hear it ;)

Has or hasn't Ireland had a "de facto" ban on private ownership of most firearms for most of it's recent history?
It had a de facto ban on everything over .22 calibre and all pistols from '72 to the mid '90s ('96 if I remember right), and then up to .270 calibre was reintroduced, and now the restrictions have been all lifted.

Which do you see as a reasonable compromise?
Being asked to have a good reason to own a firearm and to not be a danger to others because I have one.

And is it reasonable that this already heavily qualified right can be revoked at any time in the misguided interests of protecting another nation from themselves?
First of all, it's not a right. Secondly, it's not heavily qualified. And thirdly, no, not really, but it's also unreasonable that 18-year-old kids get shot through the chest with a .50 calibre barrett because they were ordered to go stand at a traffic checkpoint. In other words, we had slightly different motivations than you lads have had in the past when it came to framing firearms laws. That's not to say we got the "right answer", if there is such a thing (and I don't think there is), but the answer we got worked for us. Soverign nation, different culture, etc, etc, etc...

Look, the reality of the situation here on the ground is that any chap who's not a known thug or a total wacko can get pretty much anything he or she wants if they have a reason to want it. And if they didn't have a reason to want a firearm, why would they be looking for one? There isn't any real, day-to-day problem. The only people with undergarments uncomfortably arranged over here are the ones who think that on paper we should have an undeniable right to carry a .44 magnum tucked into the waistband of our trousers as we saunter down the high street. And frankly, very, very few of us have that much time for them because most of us think they're slightly cracked. Guns are seen over here by those of us that shoot as being like cars - not evil inherently, nor intrinsicly dangerous, but not harmless objects of fun either. Misused, or used by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, and they can be deadly. Used safely, they're never going to hurt anyone (except in cases where they're used in extremis for self-defence, and that's surprisingly rare in Ireland).
 
Sparks, I don't think you fully appreciate that the diversity of gun regulation in the United States means that we are intimately familiar with the entire range of potential governmental control.

The differences between "shall" and "may" in the law become dramatically obvious when it only takes an hour's drive to play under a completely new set of rules.

In our case, working under a government that (in theory) has many more personal-right safeguards than yours, it is still painfully clear that "may" issue/license etc invites a world of abuse.


As for the more general topic, the reason we push for more personal rights for people in Ireland and other countries is because we care about the basic human condition: nationalistic ego has nothing to do with it.
 
First of all, it's not a right. Secondly, it's not heavily qualified...

My bad. A heavily qualified priviledge.

but it's also unreasonable that 18-year-old kids get shot through the chest with a .50 calibre barrett because they were ordered to go stand at a traffic checkpoint.

Apparently you suscribe to the gun control fallacy that disarming the general public actually prevents terrorists from posession of weapons? Or was that comment entirely off topic and apropos of nothing whatsoever? It's unreasonable for babies to be born with spina bifida also, but I don't normally comment upon that in a gun control debate.
 
Now don't go starting a trend of apologizing when you find you made a mistake. If it catches on, whatever shall we do for acrimony? :D

Six months is better than 5 years, but the very fact that a judge is now on record as openly differentiating between "gun culture" (read criminals) and "exceptional circumstances" (read non-threats to society) could be the wedge needed to push reform even more in favor of the people who were never threats in the first place.

I love how Miss Zero-tolerance plays the race card, probably not realizing that the logical outcome of her line of thought isn't "jail everybody" but rather stop jailing (otherwise) non-criminals for mere possession.
 
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