"But guns were MADE for killing"

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My guns are tools . . . I use these various tools for different applications. Some are for target shooting, some for hunting, some solely as a valued collector's piece, others for the defense of my family and myself, should, God forbid, that threat ever arise.
 
http://www.fas.org/main/home.jsp

http://www.sipri.org/

Que, there's a couple of links which may or may not be of assistance in your quest.
Always remember that when something is made illegal, there will always emerge from the murk, a black market for whatever item is being banned and this item will have major impact on future laws... which will in no way stop the flow of illicit trafficking amongst criminals, but only stop the law abiding. Who will in turn become future victims of that which they wish to rid themselves.
 
Que

There is a fundamental problem with the premise that legislation solves anything.

Legislation solves nothing. Really.

You can't solve rudeness by making a law that people must be polite.

You can't prevent sex by outlawing sex. People are going to do it. All you will change is when and where and under what conditions.

You can't prevent drinking by outlawing alcohol. You CAN, and they DID, but it didn't work. People are going to drink. All that changes is the source and the venue and the companionship.

You can't prevent murder by outlawing murder. Murder is going to happen anyway. For what it's worth, murder has nearly always been unlawful. What changes over time is the definition of murder and the tools used for it, depending on who's in charge and the culture they've created.

People have been killing each other for all of creation. Even during the most recent "civilized" periods of man, killing one another is so common and ordinary that it's become a cliche. You almost can't write a book or produce a movie without killing as part of the plot.

Sam Colt, those who went before him, and those who have come later, did something unique in human history: he made the weak equal to the strong.

The tradition throughout history is that the strong control and dictate to the weak. With the advent of the personal firearm, the first true equality of force in history was achieved.

The bullies have never been able to accept this. The bullies want control back. The bullies can't extort and steal and control and intimidate if their victims have the ability to fight back with equal force.

Socialism.

Socialism is a utopian-sounding ideology that visits brutality on a population to guarantee equal outcomes regardless of ability (which is seldom equal). It requires force to steal from the able and distribute the wealth they create to those who can't or won't. Socialism, while sounding "ideal" and "fair" for everyone, cannot succeed without forcible confiscation. The most able are punished and the least able rewarded. It is, without doubt, one of the sickest political/economic systems ever cooked up.

It is one of the more popular forms of tyranny.

It is the politics of bullies.

Bullies don't want the masses to have the means to protect their persons or property. Guns make it possible for people to protect what is theirs. Therefore, guns have to go.

Bullies are not necessarily stupid. It isn't a real stretch for them to grasp that you can't TELL people why you're disarming them. Therefore you need a subterfuge of some kind.

Crime.

Everybody can agree that crime is bad. If you can convince them that somehow GUNS are CRIME, then you can get the guns.

All you have to do then is keep redefining what "crime" is, until the very ownership of a gun, at all, is a crime.

Now you have disarmed the population. You have reduced them to committing their crimes with knives, swords, bricks, fire, rope, broken glass, bow & arrow, and other low-tech implements. You have NOT eliminated crime.

You HAVE, however, created a disparity of force, so that when YOUR goons and thugs show up to enforce YOUR laws and decrees, the population will not have any effective means of fighting your tyranny.

If there is one thing that has become clear over the last several decades, it is that gun control is murder.

One population after another has been disarmed and systematically exterminated.

Crime has never been solved by gun control. All you get when you remove guns is crime that is committed with different tools, and a whole set of demographics now unable to defend themselves against bullies and predators. This is not progress.

More gun legislation is not only NOT the answer, it is a COMPLETELY WRONG answer.

The "illegal trafficking" to which you refer only occurs because some thug decided to restrict access to the only effective means of self defense. The NEED for self defense doesn't go away, and the DESIRE to commit crimes doesn't go away, and *presto* you have a black market.

Guns are here to stay. There is no rationally supportable way to eliminate them.

Let's turn our attention instead to criminals. We've always had those. We've always had laws against what they do. We've always had penalties for those crimes.

What's new is this: the concept that the criminal is not really at fault, and shouldn't really be punished, because that would be cruel. So we let them back out on the street, and pretend that we have to restrict access to self defense tools because bad people (whom we've let out onto the streets) might get them.

And, since we can't be sure who's bad, we have to treat everyone as though he is or could be a criminal, until he can prove otherwise, before we allow him to exercise a guaranteed right to own arms.

There's your real insanity: let bad people back out into the general population, don't keep track of them, and instead make everyone else prove he's NOT a criminal.

The answer is just about too simple to be expressed: a) anyone you allow to walk the streets can be trusted to own a gun, b) anyone you can't trust to own a gun doesn't walk the streets.

Guns are not crime. Guns are not bad.

Guns are the only effective way honest people can protect themselves from otherwise stronger predators.

Criminals are bad. Your choices are these: a) fix the criminal so you can trust him, b) kill the criminal so he's no longer a problem, c) house and feed and care for the criminal until he dies.

It only becomes completely crazy when you try (d) and just let someone you know is bad loose into society.

Guns aren't the problem.

Bullies and tyrants are the problem.

Solve the right problem.
 
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ArfingGreebly for President!

Man you have an exceptionaly realistic grasp on modern society and it's relationship to weapons.

Please don't be insulted by this but have you ever thought of running for public office? If you do and and it's national you'll get this Okie's vote.
 
I like weapons, and I really do not have any problems with them... my problems lies in the weapons trafficking... and according to MORI, one in three people are affected by gun crime (http://www.ipsos-mori.com/polls/2006/controlarms.shtml)

That link says 30%, which is not 1 in 3 btw, are affected or know somebody affected. That makes the data extremely poor and unreliable. The same victim can be represented multiple times, because a large number of people have heard of his victimization, or people may have heard things erronously, someone who just lied about having been shot at to sound macho, or the crime could've been something which caused no harm, being criminal simply by possession, or a large number of other things. It also includes South Africa, one of the hottest murder capitals of the world. The sampling of 6 countries is not even close to being large enough to get an accurate estimate of the percentage of people actually victims of gun crime. Just horrible stats all around. Those numbers are just complete garbage. Literally everything important to getting quality statistics was done improperly. Every last thing. They don't provide use with group sizes, st. deviation, modeling or the p value considered low enough to make this assertation like fact. Just horribly inaccurate and specifically created with the goal in mind to be alarmist. If they really wanted reliable stats, they'd simply compare gun crime records to population sizes in a large sampling of countries where this is possible and explain how they come to their conclusion.
 
ArfinGreebly : Post 204

Staff,Moderators

I respectfully ask this post be added to THR Library.

ArfinGreebly ,

I am humbled and most appreciative of your post, thank you!

If you have not sent that into a Newspaper, I would encourage you do so.
If persons ask for permission to reprint on blogs, or in Magazines, please grant it.

I would really hope and like to see those words picked up and posted in Magazines, blogs, mass mailing to elected officials, editors of newspapers...


Respectfully,

Steve
 
Something like this has probably already been mentioned, but my response is always "Actually, I have a rifle at home that was designed from the ground up to be used by Olympians while shooting at paper targets. Regardless of 'design', however, it does exactly the same thing as any other gun. My target gun can be used to kill people, while the 'deadliest' gun ever made can be shot at targets. So it really boils down to attributing intent to inanimate objects, which is obviously kind of silly."

I think it's a clever and logical line. It doesn't work on hard-core antis any more than anything else, though, which is to say "not at all".
 
Guns are just tools. People kill people with guns, knives, poisons, garrottes, and a variety of weapons. Dont blame the tool.
 
I have a little different perspective on firearms, guns and weapons as a whole which to me has put an end to the question "guns were made to kill" on the rare occasion that it pops up. As some of you know from my few posts here I compete on a regular basis with submachine guns in Florida and the question asked is usually "why do you need a machine gun?" is often in the same sentence as "why does anyone need a gun they just kill" etc... I am wise enough to know making bold statements backed by pride or contempt fall on deaf ears. Below is my argument and to date it has been successful.

The question
"Why do you need a gun? Guns were made for killing"

My Answer
History is littered with items which were once the most lethal weapons of their time. Likely starting bare human hands and graduating from sharpened bones and rock to the spear and eventually to where we are today with firearms and the nuclear bomb. History is also dotted with the weapons of the past being used for harmless entertainment in the current day. If you have ever thrown a Frisbee, a boomerang, shot a bow and arrow or thrown a javelin during track and field in gym class you have held what was once considered and still is a lethal weapon. Their ability to kill still exists but as modern day combat weapons they are obsolete. Firearms are no different and technology will either eclipse them with more lethal weapons or help protect us from all hostile projectiles.

I use my guns for sport and personal defense and I celebrate the gun for what it is, what it has been, and for what it will someday be, another obsolete weapon in the history books. I look forward to the day when firearms are nothing more than historical relics looked at with curiosity and I can play with them unhindered and unabridged by laws or misconception.

Just like the Javelin, Archery , Fencing, and the martial arts, firearms are celebrated in the Olympics in their non lethal form. Likewise Frisbees, Boomerangs, and many other weapons of the past are used every day by people across the globe for harmless entertainment instead of bloodshed. Perhaps the problem isn't guns or any weapon but the way we perceive them. A weapon is only as dangerous as the intent of the person behind it.


The above words are always followed with a polite invitation to the range and often a lot of questions followed with a "hmm I never thought of it that way before".

my 2 cents. Your mileage may vary.

Kill em with kindness,

- Todd
 
Smallarms

Quote:

>Small Arms—they cause 90% of civilian casualties.<
************

Yeah...and sex causes the birth rate to rise...and if the all-knowing UN somehow manages to take'em all, the men bent on killing other men, women, and children will use machetes or spears or clubs, or whatever they can lay hands on. The problem is NOT with the tool. It's with the tool bearer.

Saying that small arms causes casualties is like saying that cars cause drunk driving.
 
Wow - thanks Que - "small arms in war are used to kill people". Who would have guessed! :rolleyes:

Of course, they say...

Small arms include weapons such as

hand guns
pistols
sub-machine guns
mortars
landmines
grenades
light missiles.




Compare that useless data with the FACT that Firearms are only involved in roughly 1.2% of ALL DEATHS in the USA, and we here in the good old USA are doing great! I think the UN should start supporting natural rights like we recognize here in other nations - I bet many must wish they had it so good!
 
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