"Stopping Power" article

[chopinbloc]

There has been some discussion on “stopping power” of late so I think it’s time that we get a few things straight. First off, “stopping power” or “knockdown power” doesn’t exist. Velocity exists. Foot pounds exist. Momentum exists. Even tissue disruption can be quantified but there is no magical force called “stopping.”

The term “stopping power” is, at best, an awkward attempt to quantify the ability of a given cartridge or load to incapacitate an attacker. It may surprise you to know that Cracky McCrackerson, your friendly neighborhood crack head/rapist/burglar actually has no idea that your grandpappy’s 1911 is supposed to take a man’s arm off when it whizzes past. He doesn’t know that the stopping powertoothless suspender guy who seems nailed to that creaky stool at the gun store told you so. He doesn’t know that every gun rag ever written proclaims how singularly badass the .45 ACP is and how you have to buy a $3,000 1911 because ‘Merkah! You have to convince his body to stop trying to harm you. This is called “incapacitation.” What causes incapacitation, though?

The rest is here if you're interested.

 

[MistWolf]

All I can tell you is, my motorhome has worse stopping power than my car

 

[chopinbloc]

LOL. I bet it has great "stopping" power if you look at it from a different perspective:




ETA: Just remembered that there's a naughty word at the very end of that. I'll remove it if that's a problem.

 

[CDW4ME]

The 357 Sig and 10mm seem to hit gel harder than other pistol calibers (generalization).
Maybe it is because they transfer 500#+ KE into the gel.
Maybe they would have a slightly faster potential incapacitation (same placement) than other pistol rounds.
Maybe not better than 45, but close?

 

[rs7]

Stopping power is all in the head.

 

[MedWheeler]

^^ especially if it's the head of the target.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

In handguns I figured "Stopping Power" was when you sent a projectile in excess of 60 grains at a speed greater than 650 fps in to (and through) the heart, spine, and brain (not just head, got to get the honeycomb) of an attacker.

I mean .44 Cal Colt Walkers were putting guys down with one shot kills and those barely pushed a 142 grain Lead ball in excess of 700 fps as I understand it. I assume the shooters were aiming for the heart and at least hitting the spine. Buffalo Bill was using .36 Navy Colts and those were on par with the .380 as I understand it (though possibly wrong) and he was known to have killed a couple guys in his day. Then you consider John Wesley Hardin who used a few different guns and was said to carry a .41 Long Colt caliber revolver towards the end of his life and used it quite well.

Practice to hit what you are aiming for not the general area. I can hit a red daisy cup at twenty yards one handed with my S&W 15-3 loaded with a 158 grain SWC pushing roughly 800 fps from a 4" barrel. A red daisy cup ain't much larger than a human heart. I can't quite do that as reliably with my GP100 using most .357 magnum ammo. If you shoot out a guy's heart and get his spine, I'd say "Stopping Power" has been achieved.

 

[RPRNY]

Thanks. Interesting piece. The quote from the first post is Hall of Fame material.

 

[rs7]

MedWheeler, that's exactly what I meant.

 

[Nom de Forum]

This is the only type of "Stopping Power Article" that is typically worth reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake

 

[chopinbloc]

Did you read it?

 

[javjacob]

What I have always thought of in "knock down power" is energy transfer. A 357mag has 600 or 800 ft lbs of energy, a 45ACP has 400 ft lbs of energy. So in theory and reality the 357mag has more "knock down power" and will kill them deader faster right?

Last summer a few of us guys were taking some shots at a log that I set up. 22LR didn't move it, 22mag didn't move it, 9mm carbine didn't move it either. 7.62x39 would wobble it but couldn't knock it over. Shot it with a 270 and knocked it over, set it back up and the 270 knocked it over again. So wouldn't you say the 270 had the best knock down power of all those guns being it was the only gun that could "knock down" the log?

I will say I never use the term "knock down power" but I do know what people mean by it and I don't get why people think it doesn't exist. Its a cheesy term but it does exist.

 

[chopinbloc]

They are usually talking about humans. I don't know of any non-crew served weapon that is capable of knocking down a man.

 

[javjacob]

I think people are trying to be too literal in the argument that there is no such thing as knock down power. Why do they call Greenland Greenland and Iceland Iceland?

 

[4season]

LOL. I bet it has great "stopping" power if you look at it from a different perspective:




ETA: Just remembered that there's a naughty word at the very end of that. I'll remove it if that's a problem.

I drive a Peterbilt so my "knockdown power" is over 10 times of your F-150. But if you jump me at the pumps a single 95 grain bullet to the brain will certainly bring you down. I ain't getting in my truck to stop an attacker. In other words this video is pointless.

 

[4season]

Why when you shoot a deer do some run and some fall right there? I have shot deer in the same place with the same gun at the same angle with the same bullet and achieve the same wound channel but have the deer do completely different things. Some have fallen as soon as shot, kicked a few times and were dead by the time I got to them. Others have jumped, ran a few feet, then fell within 30 seconds. And one ran 50 yards uphill, jumped a fence and was still running when he died over 200 yards from where he was shot. It comes down to frame of mind and amount of fight in the one who was shot. Anything less than a central nervous system hit will not incapacitate. Don't give me this wound channel, blood loss, kinetic energy crap. Any bullet in any caliber does not do enough damage to stop a committed attacker unless the brain or spine is severed.

 

[Field Tester]

One could make a logical point that "Stopping/Knockdown Power" is all the things listed in the first paragraph along with shot placement.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I will say I never use the term "knock down power" but I do know what people mean by it and I don't get why people think it doesn't exist. Its a cheesy term but it does exist.

Because in a bullet fired from a firearm, nobody has ever been knocked over by it, despite getting 100% energy transfer.

 

[JustinJ]

I define "stopping power" as the likelihood and speed at which a round will stop a threat. Scientifically speaking, if we take 100 random cases of a person being shot by a specific round, X, and 100 random cases of someone getting hit by different round, Y, whichever was more effective in neutralizing the recipient of the gun shots has more stopping power. A large enough sample group of each would negate the effect of shot placement. Such a study is of course not available as in gun shots there is such a wide variety of different round types used. We could include only HP or FMJ rounds in a comparison and hope sample sizes are sufficient to offset different bullet design and weight variables. Regardless, its too hard to control for variables to make a conclusive study so such comparisons can only provide limited information.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Did you read it?

Yes and I should have better indicated I was making a sarcastic joke. After decades of reading "Stopping Power" articles filled with pseudo-scientific nonsense I get a little snarky when you see the phrase "Stopping Power". Your article is o.k. as these things go but nothing that has not been said before many, many times.

 

[javjacob]

Double Naught Spy... So what you are saying is because a bullet doesn't literally knock someone over that knock down power doesn't exist? I think people are trying to be too literal. A cannon is a really big gun and im sure a cannon ball would knock a person over.

 

[javjacob]

I would say its just easier for a person to say a 357mag has more "knockdown" or "stopping" power than a 9mm than it is for a person to have to say a 357mag has more ft lbs of energy than a 9mm. There are also a lot of uninformed people that don't know what muzzle energy is. So to sum it up its slang talk.

The worst term I ever heard people saying is after that stupid The Fast and the Furious movie and every low IQ person would call nitrous oxide NOS! Ah I couldn't stand that!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Slang? No, it is a misnomer and misrepresentative. It is not proper terminology.

There is no knockdown power via the firearms that we are discussing here anymore than trying to rate your desk fan via the Fujita Tornado Damage Scale, LOL.

 

[javjacob]

there is "knock down power" maybe not enough to actually knock you down but its still there. that's like saying a 5hp motor doesn't have any horsepower because its not enough to move a 5,000 lb truck.
I don't ever use the term but I do know what it means. you are being too literal. Who cares if people use the term? What does it hurt to you?

 

[chopinbloc]

Non due Forum, thank you. I tried to frame the issue in a concise and accessible way. I know it's been covered a lot but I think it's also important to provide a counterpoint to the gun counter mouth breathers.