"Stopping Power" article

[Shawn Dodson]

Massad Ayoob, David Spauling, Marshall & Sanow, and others used to haunt the morgues and police stations. They compiled quite a list of what worked and what didn't.

No theory, just dead bodies and police reports.

I'm unaware of any of Spaulding's work in this area. As for the others I'm very much aware of significant credibility issues regarding their work and claims.

 

[jim243]

I submit that the thread is only as silly as you make it.

You are missing the point completely, You can shoot someone in the foot with a 44 mag and not stop them or you can shoot someone in the medulla oblongata with a 22 LR and it is a instant kill.

Stopping power is BS unless you are talking about using a cannon to destroy as much tissue as possible. It is not what you shoot but what you HIT.

What do you think is better? A 357 mag in the arm or a 9 mm in the heart?

Jim

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Stopping power is BS unless you are talking about using a cannon to destroy as much tissue as possible. It is not what you shoot but what you HIT....

Except (1) in real life one can not always reasonably expect perfect hits; and (2) the real question is which from among the available choices of self defense handgun cartridges are likely to increase one's chances of a quick and successful resolution of the problem.

It's true that he phrase "stopping power" is pretty much meaningless. But there are reasons why it's generally a better idea to carry a 9mm, or a .40 or a .45 loaded with JHP ammunition than a .22, if one can reasonably make the choice.

 

[jim243]

But there are reasons why it's generally a better idea to carry a 9mm, or a .40 or a .45 loaded with JHP ammunition than a .22, if one can reasonably make the choice

Frank, I agree, but I doubt that anyone here that has not been under fire before will even have the ability to hit the side of a barn when under fire. What they can shoot under stress will be the best for self-defense.

You can shoot at stationary targets day in and day out, but it will not prepare you for combat. I carry a 45 ACP since it is the best I can shoot with, a 44 mag would probably be better but is too big for me. If I had the time my 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot would be my choice of weapon, but is too big to carry around on the street. Besides, since I retired I gave up shaving and would scare the hell out of anyone I met on the street caring a shotgun (LOL).

Stay safe and shoot straight.
Jim

 

[gym]

These numbers are solid proof , if you ever get into a discussion with an anti, why more than 7 rounds are needed. If you are attacked by, 1, 2 or 3 armed men, "really any number" you will miss almost 30-50 % of your shots due to movement, nerves, adrenaline, etc. The remainder may require 4, or even more rounds per Bad Guy. "To attain your goal of staying alive, and stopping the attack". So 7 rounds even allowing for 30% misses, gives you 4 or 5 active rounds. That would be enough for 1 or perhaps 2 bad guys being put down or 1 put down and 1 wounded. So now what are you to do? The absolute worse feeling in the world is running out of ammo while being fired upon. It's not like you can call time out.
Without sounding unrealistic, you may be a great shot when shooting at targets. But very few of us have had any practice with close quarter combat and live ammo. The accompanying tunnel vision and neurological impairment, is indeed almost impossible to train for knowing you won't really be killed while doing so. Thus having more ammo to work with would be the most efficient way of sustaining ones own life from being taken.
Practice is good but unrealistic in some cases. Like comparing a movie to real life.
I know from myself, being around guns for 65 years, that with all that I know and have seen, I would not carry a gun with 5 shots in it, just for the reasons I stated. I did for 24 years. I just don't think that it's worth it any more, considering you can carry one with twice the amount for very little trade off in comfort.
You are dragging around the darn thing anyway, may as well have enough ammo on hand.
Now someone will say most gunfights only last a few rounds, which may have been true years ago, but with these new guns and new breed of killer out on the street, I just don't feel that to be the case, plus if you don't connect with all 5 rounds dead on in the head, or other instant stop, you will run out of ammo. How stupid would someone feel meeting St Peter and he saying, why didn't you pack enough for your journey, you knew there was a chance you may have to use that thing, you must have thought a lot of yourself to think you would prevail, now put down your harp and meet God on the firing line.

 

[rs7]

As to the MOB using .22 to kill, you must remember that there is a ton of pressure from expanding gasses that also enter the wound cavity, pretty much turning the brain to mush. Point blank shooting depends very little on the bullet. Besides, .22 is relatively quiet.

 

[Nom de Forum]

So reading all the above posts would seem to indicate that if someone were to use the equation:

Bullet Weight x Bullet Velocity x Bore Sectional Area = Relative Stopping Power

and get results that indicate a 9mmPara bullet is only 45% as effective as a 45ACP bullet in "Relative Stopping Power", perhaps they should be just a little sceptical?

WOW! Five hours later and not a comment on or recognition of that equation. Are you guys sure you have a good foundation of historical knowledge to adequately discuss and define this subject? Guys, that is the second most famous method of calculating "Stopping Power". For years it was considered by many, many people to be an accurate method of accessing the "Stopping Power" of pistol bullets. So respected was that equation it was practically heresy to question its validity. Is that enough of a clue for recognition. Is it enough of a clue that this topic is historically fraught with pseudo-science and anecdotal nonsense, and is intellectual quicksand for anyone sincerely attempting to get a consensus of opinion.

 

[Sam1911]

It would be my humble conclusion that there is no possible way to define or measure this phenomenon in a scientifically useful way, and that all attempts to do so run into a quagmire of conflicting and impossible to capture effects which change the relevance of whatever stopping power data one thinks one has collated.

Therefore, the only real way to answer the question is via a kind of meta-analysis that gleans general trends from many and diverse sources, and to apply the answers so achieved in the most limited and personal ways, only.

In other words, observe results, read what you can on the subject, study various sources, and then make a choice that your are comfortable with -- AND MOVE ON TO PRACTICE.

Nit picking over whether a cartridge is ok, good, decent, better, pretty good, very good, or something in between is just so much pointless navel-staring. Is anyone here really THAT conflicted over the thought that they just might be let down by a 9mm, when a .45 would have done the trick? Really? Naaah, didn't think so.

Carry the most powerful gun you can shoot FAST and ACCURATELY, and stop the myopic hand-wringing over it.

...

Having said that, is there anything more to say here?

 

[Nom de Forum]

It would be my humble conclusion that there is no possible way to define or measure this phenomenon in a scientifically useful way, and that all attempts to do so run into a quagmire of conflicting and impossible to capture effects which change the relevance of whatever stopping power data one thinks one has collated.

Agreed. Until very recently that equation I posted, Jeff Cooper's Short Form for calculating RSP, was widely believed to be gospel. It was nonsense from inception. Fortunately most realize that now.

Therefore, the only real way to answer the question is via a kind of meta-analysis that gleans general trends from many and diverse sources, and to apply the answers so achieved in the most limited and personal ways, only.

In other words, observe results, read what you can on the subject, study various sources, and then make a choice that your are comfortable with -- AND MOVE ON TO PRACTICE.

Nit picking over whether a cartridge is ok, good, decent, better, pretty good, very good, or something in between is just so much pointless navel-staring. Is anyone here really THAT conflicted over the thought that they just might be let down by a 9mm, when a .45 would have done the trick? Really? Naaah, didn't think so.

Carry the most powerful gun you can shoot FAST and ACCURATELY, and stop the myopic hand-wringing over it.

Yup.

...

Having said that, is there anything more to say here?

Little that has not been said about a trillion times before.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Having said that, is there anything more to say here?

Little that has not been said about a trillion times before.

So let's call it a day, and go do something useful -- like clean our guns.