Buying a ghost gun before the ban

[BlueHeelerFl]

As others have stated there are millions upon millions of guns in this country. If anyone is really concerned about the government tracing you, just buy used guns like an old model 10 or an 870. Even newer guns that have bounced around the used market would be nearly impossible to trace.

 

[Styx]

As others have stated there are millions upon millions of guns in this country. If anyone is really concerned about the government tracing you, just buy used guns like an old model 10 or an 870. Even newer guns that have bounced around the used market would be nearly impossible to trace.

No government red tape, no backround check or fees, no reconds, no traveling, and shipped straight to me door. Even on the used market, guns can be traced and/or the person who sold the gun can open their mouth or keep a record of who they sold it too. In some states like my state of VA, private sales are banned, so you have to create a papper trail and pay the state and FFL an extra fee to buy an old model 10 or 870...

To be against the concept of 80% lowers and to down play the advantages is to de facto be for the NICs as far as I am concerned.

 

[castile]

I live in a state that you can do a FTF and no BGC. But any more its getting harder and harder to buy even from a private seller and not have them want to write down your DL. No issues for me but a few guns the Gov does not know exists and put them in the ground or somewhere they can be retrieved when SHTF its worth it to me. And now they are not too bad. 89 bucks for a lower, 50 for a parts kit, and we will see when the new rule takes affect but my guess is you will still be able to buy a slide with out any paperwork. I am hoping so at least. When is the new rule supposed to go into affect? I personally have no doubt that it will go into affect.

 

[AlexanderA]

Even on the used market, guns can be traced

Theoretically, yes, but as a practical matter, no. The way ATF gun tracing works, first they contact the manufacturer and query the gun's serial number. Then they go to the distributor and then to the selling dealer. So, it's easy to identify the first retail buyer. After that, it gets murky if the gun changes hands many times, even if it subsequently passes through dealers again. The question is, how much time is ATF willing to spend on this trace? If it's a gun recovered in a high-profile crime, sure, they'll do it. If it has to do with confiscating millions of guns, they would simply be overwhelmed.

Also note the passage of time. Dealer records can be destroyed after 20 years. If a dealer goes out of business, supposedly the records are to be sent to the ATF, but then they end up in an irretrievable "Raiders of the Lost Ark" warehouse. (ATF is prohibited from digitizing the records.) The upshot is that if you bought a gun 30, 40, or 50 years ago (or, say, your father did), to all intents and purposes it is untraceable.

 

[Trey Veston]

Also note the passage of time. Dealer records can be destroyed after 20 years. If a dealer goes out of business, supposedly the records are to be sent to the ATF, but then they end up in an irretrievable "Raiders of the Lost Ark" warehouse. The upshot is that if you bought a gun 30, 40, or 50 years ago (or, say, your father did), to all intents and purposes it is untraceable.

When my dad closed his last gun shop after being in business for 40 years, he took all the copies of the 4473s and burned them in a giant bonfire. He said it was a full-sized pickup load of boxes and boxes of copies. This was in 2007. I know at least 3 of my firearms were included in the paperwork, including my first AR bought in 1998. I still have it.

 

[Elkins45]

Theoretically, yes, but as a practical matter, no. The way ATF gun tracing works, first they contact the manufacturer and query the gun's serial number. Then they go to the distributor and then to the selling dealer. So, it's easy to identify the first retail buyer. After that, it gets murky if the gun changes hands many times, even if it subsequently passes through dealers again. The question is, how much time is ATF willing to spend on this trace? If it's a gun recovered in a high-profile crime, sure, they'll do it. If it has to do with confiscating millions of guns, they would simply be overwhelmed.

Also note the passage of time. Dealer records can be destroyed after 20 years. If a dealer goes out of business, supposedly the records are to be sent to the ATF, but then they end up in an irretrievable "Raiders of the Lost Ark" warehouse. (ATF is prohibited from digitizing the records.) The upshot is that if you bought a gun 30, 40, or 50 years ago (or, say, your father did), to all intents and purposes it is untraceable.

4473 forms can be destroyed after 20 years. What about bound books?

 

[salt_river]

While one can complete a Polymer 80 build in 30 minutes or less, It usually isn't the best finish or the most reliable. Unless of course you have plenty of experience as a machinist or gun smith. It normally take me 30 minutes from start to finish to complete one. Mine are built with First Time Quality and are finished as well as a factory Glock frame.

I am a member on the Marine Gun Builder Forum and have had to help plenty of people get their builds working. The two biggest mistakes I see new builders make is that they rush the build and don't finish the recoil spring channel correctly or they rush and get the pin holes off. The second issue I see is the use of aftermarket frame and slide parts. Most aftermarket parts kits are out of spec when compared to OEM Glock parts.

Following on to this, the handwavey news editorials about a crazy person finishing a P80 build in an hour are nonsense. No way is it getting done in an hour to anything resembling a functional state with hand tools on the first try.

Basically ''ghost guns'' are AR15 lower receivers that were purchased 80% completed. The end user must possess a router,had purchased a jig and specific router bits to complete this receiver. Basically this can take about two hours to complete this lower receiver to install the trigger, sear etc. This receiver does not have a serial number or any type of registration, but so far they are not illegal. One may not sell or give one away w/o breaking quite a few laws,, both federal and state. Sleepy Joe definitely wants to ban these 80% receivers.

There's something about milling out a lower receiver that just makes a guy feel good. It's darn near therapeutic. You can't rush it. You have to take your time to get something that looks good and will work well. But when it's all done you'll have something to be proud of. Or so I'm told...ya'know...because I wouldn't know anything about that!

 

[salt_river]

Theoretically, yes, but as a practical matter, no. The way ATF gun tracing works, first they contact the manufacturer and query the gun's serial number. Then they go to the distributor and then to the selling dealer. So, it's easy to identify the first retail buyer. After that, it gets murky if the gun changes hands many times, even if it subsequently passes through dealers again. The question is, how much time is ATF willing to spend on this trace? If it's a gun recovered in a high-profile crime, sure, they'll do it. If it has to do with confiscating millions of guns, they would simply be overwhelmed.

Also note the passage of time. Dealer records can be destroyed after 20 years. If a dealer goes out of business, supposedly the records are to be sent to the ATF, but then they end up in an irretrievable "Raiders of the Lost Ark" warehouse. (ATF is prohibited from digitizing the records.) The upshot is that if you bought a gun 30, 40, or 50 years ago (or, say, your father did), to all intents and purposes it is untraceable.

The way our IOI explained it to us, when the authorities locate a gun they can easily track down the gun to the first A&D book in most cases. The FFL opens the book, shows them the entry, and the ATF moves on to the buyer. The original buyer may have reported it stolen, may have sold it, may have had it stolen and didn't report it...whatever. If the original buyer used another FFL to transfer the gun to a new owner the ATF can continue down that road, but only if that original buyer discloses that little piece of information. If there is no record there's not much they can do. As AlexanderA said, even if the gun was sold a few times in private sales and then crosses the desk of an FFL again, the ATF has no way of knowing that and probably won't locate that transaction or ever know it happened even though there is a "record" of the sale.

In the words of our IOI, "you guys [FFLs] are our national gun registry."

 

[FROGO207]

In a free state like mine there is no keeping track of SN or background checks for private sales period. The real way to stop the ghost gun deal is to repeal any local/state registration/ tracking of privaye sales. Tecnically every private sale produces a mostly untraceable firearm. So far I have never been asked to produce an ID to buy one and have not asked the seller for theirs. If I have a problem with someone I would either go through an FFL with the background check or refuse the deal. More than half of mine are private buys and a majority done years ago as well. Bet most of the sellers I have dealt with have passed on by now anyway. Just sayi'n.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I'm often asked for I.D. when I buy guns from private individuals here in deep South Texas, probably because so many of these guns are bought so that they can be sent to Mexico. Sellers want to protect themselves by saying that they tried to do what was right... .

 

[castile]

You can absolutely finish a P80 in 30 min. I timed myself on my first one. It took an extra 20 min after finishing the lower to fit the parts in. I ran several mags through it and it never FTF. There is nothing to finishing the lower of a P80. I did mine with a dremel and file. The AR lowers takes me about 2.5 hours. My first one was 4 but I went slow and kept a video turning it on and off watching every move and copying it. My last one took me about 2.5 hours of actual work.

 

[AlexanderA]

I've completed an "80%" lower, just to see what was involved. It turned out OK, but there is definitely a "learning curve" in doing this. If I want a working gun, it's much easier and neater (and cheaper) just to get a finished lower. (I've commented on the traceability issue earlier in the thread.)

Where "80%" lowers really come into their own is when you keep them that way (incomplete) and use them to assemble "dummy" guns. These would be placeholders for the real guns, which would be kept..... elsewhere.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

There's no guarantee that buying a ghost gun before any projected ban would actually benefit you any more than buying any gun with a serial number on it.

First of all, a ban doesn't have to be "grandfathered". And even if it is, there's no guarantee that the grandfather clause will remain indefinite. Laws, and interpretations where vague, change all the time.

For example, years ago if you had a gun stolen and it was later recovered, even if the serial number had been (partially) removed, it was still legal for you to own it when it was recovered and returned. There was even a process by which you could obtain a new serial number, I believe. Retaining documentation would have been important, I suspect.

However, that ruling by the BATF has since changed and now it's no longer legal. Doesn't matter if you recovered the firearm before that interpretation, either.

(An actual attorney knowledgeable on this can fix me here, if I'm in error. This is based on what I looked up several years ago with respect to a specific firearm at the time.)

You know what the serial numbers actually do?

The only practical purpose they serve is inventory/quality control for the manufacturer.

They serve absolutely no practical purpose for the government with respect to gun control and crime prevention. The best they can do is use it to positively identify a specific firearm as evidence AFTER the fact when the weapon has been recovered. They MAY be able to trace ownership by starting at the manufacturer and seeing where the firearm was first shipped to, and from there scour through Form 4473s to see who first purchased it...from there, it's a trail that may grow cold soon, if there was a privage sale involved. The only way to make it more practical for the government is if they institute a full, mandatory gun registration program.

You want a firearm that's not listed anywhere in your name? Buy it in a private sale somewhere. At least there's no Form 4473 involved from the point of sale. (Provided, of course, that this is legal where you're at.)

 

[salt_river]

You can absolutely finish a P80 in 30 min. I timed myself on my first one. It took an extra 20 min after finishing the lower to fit the parts in. I ran several mags through it and it never FTF. There is nothing to finishing the lower of a P80. I did mine with a dremel and file. The AR lowers takes me about 2.5 hours. My first one was 4 but I went slow and kept a video turning it on and off watching every move and copying it. My last one took me about 2.5 hours of actual work.

Mine still isn't quite right. I'm no gunsmith but I'm decent with tools and can follow directions. I have the Judah slide and the spring/rod seem kind of mickey mouse. The striker arrived broken (supplier fixed it quickly and at no cost; +1 to them). The first round or two out of a full Glock brand magazine will make it out of the mag but they will jam up and not chamber - I have to bump the back of the slide with my palm to get it to close fully. It becomes more reliable (a mere 50% failure rate!) as the magazine empties.

I've sanded the rails with 1500 grit paper and racked the slide at least 500 times. It feels like a spring problem. Does that make sense? Is this a common issue with P80s?

 

[castile]

I bought a Gen 3 Glock upper slide and barrel. I have heard of some issues with the after market glock slides. Mine works great. The lower was no issue at all to build. Also built a few AR lowers and they all run just like my Anderson or PSA. Not an issue. You can not push an AR lower when milling it. You don't want to heat up too much and it takes time to run a router to eat out all the metal left after drilling. The only issue I have had doing the ARs was I put the guide on backwards of my first one and drilled the trigger hole out a bit off. So I fixed the issue then put in some Epoxy putty and sanded it down and painted it black and you can not tell it was off. Even if I left it its not an issue. But it looks like it is supposed to now.