Buying a safe

[SafeGuy]

This is why the last thread got locked.

You're on here to sell safes. Instead of providing any legitimate information, you're hitting on some basics, and then advertising for people to call you.

You've been selling safes for over 30 years. That's great. Walmart has been selling safe for 30 years too. What makes you any more knowledgeable than Walmart? If you are in fact more knowledgeable, then why don't you share your credentials about your expertise, then use that expertise to provide some useful information so that everybody here can learn something?

There wasn't much bad information in that last thread. Just some information that would be bad for your business.

Nope, I didn't come on here to sell safes. I came on here because a customer of mine told me about the place and was happy with what he bought. He sent me a link telling me he had shared his experience, and that's when I saw the thread which was full of bad info.

You seem to be one of those who wanted to make it a contest after saying you had been dealing with gun safes for about 5 years as I recall. As for sharing my expertise, what would you like to know?

 

[SafeGuy]

While A1 is thinking about questions to ask, let me clarify the issue of the UL Residential Security Container (RSC) rating. Nope, this is not selling, it's sharing information as a fellow gun owner.

RSC (Residential Security Container)

Ability to withstand 5 full minutes of rigorous prying, drilling, punching, chiseling, and tampering attacks by UL technicians.

B Rating

Doors of less than 1" thickness and a body construction of less than ½" thick. Steel construction.

C Rating

Door of at least 1" thickness and a body construction of at least ½" thick. Steel construction

Burglary Classification TL-15

Combination-locked safe designed to offer a limited degree of protection against attack by common mechanical and electrical hand tools and any combination of these means.

Successfully resisted entry for a net working time of 15 minutes when attacked with common hand tools, picking tools, mechanical or portable electric tools, grinding points, carbide drills and pressure applying devices or mechanisms.

Burglary Classification TL-30

Signifies a combination-locked safe designed to offer a moderate degree of protection against attack by common mechanical and electrical hand tools and any combination of these means.

Successfully resisted entry for a net working time of 30 minutes when attacked with common hand tools, picking tools, mechanical or portable electric tools, grinding points, carbide drills and pressure applying devices or mechanisms, abrasive cutting wheels and power saws.

 

[a1abdj]

Nope, I didn't come on here to sell safes

Then what is this?

If you want to speak with someone who has been selling national brands of gun safes for over 30 years, give me a call. The number is on my website link in my signature. If I can't save you some money on a direct sale basis,

You seem to be one of those who wanted to make it a contest after saying you had been dealing with gun safes for about 5 years as I recall. As for sharing my expertise, what would you like to know?

I'm not looking for a contest. My credentials speak for themselves. I've been selling safes, including gun safes, since 1990. I represent over 40 different manufacturers. We deliver safes for most retailers in the St. Louis metro area. We also do most of the warranty work on those same safes (including some of the lines you sell). I deal in everything from $50, 25 pound wall safes, all the way up to $200,000, 25 ton, vault doors.

But this thread isn't about you and me. It's not about selling safes.

The poster asked for recomendations in the $2,000 range. Why don't you share your recomendations, and tell him why you think they would be a good choice?

 

[warnerwh]

Being just a person on this board my interest is in the knowledge. Anytime someone tries to sell their product in a thread like this I find it distasteful. I'm not trying to be malicious in any way. After a number of sales pitches in a thread that has nothing to do with sales I would not buy anything from that person even if I had to pay a bit more. At first I appreciated your input Safeguy but you have diminished yourself. I've seen this form of sales activity before but not quite so blatant as it was in the other safe thread. Apparently on THR this is acceptable or the mods are giving the benefit of the doubt. Nothing personal to you Safeguy as you're far from the first person I've seen do this.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Another strong vote for Sturdy Safe. They are top quality and will be a one-time purchase. $2k will get you a decent sized model. They have a good website and are quite friendly on the phone. It's a small family-owned business with a great product and great service. I have one, I would buy another one again without hesitation.

I would buy the largest you can afford, but I would also get top quality. In other words, I recommend you get a $2k Sturdy (or AMSEC BF) whatever size it may be, rather than a larger, cheaply made $2K retail store "safe."

It's nice to see a1abdj also suggesting the Sturdy. He is truly in the safe and vault business and is a regular contributor.

 

[SafeGuy]

Sorry you feel that way warner, but as I stated, I didn't come here for the sole purpose of making direct sales. How would you suggest I handle topics of this nature?

 

[a1abdj]

While A1 is thinking about questions to ask, let me clarify the issue of the UL Residential Security Container (RSC) rating. Nope, this is not selling, it's sharing information as a fellow gun owner.

RSC (Residential Security Container)

Ability to withstand 5 full minutes of rigorous prying, drilling, punching, chiseling, and tampering attacks by UL technicians.

This portion is missing some information. It's missing the list of equipment that can be used for this test during the 5 full minutes of rigorous prying, drilling, punching, chiseling, and tampering.

This is done by a lot of manufacturers and salesmen, because when you get specific it doesn't seem nearly as impressive.

You will notice that the list of equipment is given under the TL descriptions.

 

[a1abdj]

It's nice to see a1abdj also suggesting the Sturdy. He is truly in the safe and vault business and is a regular contributor.

I'll add that I also do not sell Sturdy, nor do I make any money when somebody else sells one.

Although I may hit Alyssa up for an autographed photo one of these days.

 

[SafeGuy]

This portion is missing some information. It's missing the list of equipment that can be used for this test during the 5 full minutes of rigorous prying, drilling, punching, chiseling, and tampering.

This is done by a lot of manufacturers and salesmen, because when you get specific it doesn't seem nearly as impressive.

You will notice that the list of equipment is given under the TL descriptions.

The most important thing to note is that UL technicians were doing the attacking with tools which would most commonly be found around the home of a safe owner. The RSC is basically the equivalent of a TL-5. If you can come up with a list of sub-standard tools UL uses in this test, I'd love to see them. Many people lose sight of the fact home burglars are NOT professional safe crackers.

If you think I'm trying to make my statements fit what I sell, call your local police department and ask them about their experience with gun safes and home burglars.

 

[SafeGuy]

A1, you keep talking up the AMSEC BF Series while talking down the UL RSC rating when those safes in fact do have the same rating. Their fire rating is NOT UL listed either. With these points, why do you feel these safes are so superior to other RSC rated safes?

http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-BF-main.htm

 

[warnerwh]

"Sorry you feel that way warner, but as I stated, I didn't come here for the sole purpose of making direct sales. How would you suggest I handle topics of this nature?"

Rather than having to pick up bits and pieces of information regarding safes a list of reasons that a feature is good or bad or something in between would be easier imo. In this situation safes in the 2,000 and below range. Your opinions/reasons as well as other dealers should be completely objectionable whether you sell the safe or not. I realize the latter is nearly impossible but complete honesty is appreciated by many, especially people like me. I will buy from someone who I know is honest even though the price is higher every time.

My current interest is that my best friend is intending to buy another safe. He has 3 already but some how when he tries to thin the herd he ends up with more guns than he had before. He's doesn't care for forums so if I can help him with information I learn from threads like this I will.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I'll add that I also do not sell Sturdy, nor do I make any money when somebody else sells one.

Although I may hit Alyssa up for an autographed photo one of these days.

Smiley face indeed!

As should be obvious, I have no connection to Sturdy other than being a customer. It is very rare for me to buy something that actually exceeds my expectations, but the Sturdy safe was one such case. I am very confident that amateurs would by stymied by it for hours if not days. (Professionals, well, then you need to start thinking TLR60x6)

 

[SafeGuy]

Warner, read my website and the "How To Choose The Right Safe" section which just discusses safes in general. That should help you and your friend get an idea of what to look for.

Now if you want me to give you examples of safes I can sell for ~$2,000.00, then it seems you are asking me to do something which you ealier said you found to be distasteful. As I said, I may or may not be able to save people money on a safe depending on their location, but I'm more than happy to make recommendations.

 

[a1abdj]

The most important thing to note is that UL technicians were doing the attacking with tools which would most commonly be found around the home of a safe owner. The RSC is basically the equivalent of a TL-5. If you can come up with a list of sub-standard tools UL uses in this test, I'd love to see them. Many people lose sight of the fact home burglars are NOT professional safe crackers.

An RSC is not the equivalant of a TL-5. On a TL test, you are allowed to use "common hand tools, picking tools, mechanical or portable electric tools, grinding points, carbide drills and pressure applying devices or mechanisms." per your definition.

The RSC test is limited to a very specific set of tools which are clearly stated in their standards. You've read the standards haven't you? This information is important if you're using it as a sales tool.

If you think I'm trying to make my statements fit what I sell, call your local police department and ask them about their experience with gun safes and home burglars.

My local police department doesn't employ any safe professionals. In fact, many of the police departments use me for warrant opening.

I'm assuming that what you're getting at is that most safes in homes are not attacked during a burglary. When they are attacked, it's a half assed attempt. This is all true. However, that does not negate the fact that a safe should be purchased for a worst case scenario and suitable for the contents it is protecting.

A1, you keep talking up the AMSEC BF Series while talking down the UL RSC rating when those safes in fact do have the same rating. Their fire rating is NOT UL listed either. With these points, why do you feel these safes are so superior to other RSC rated safes?

They are superior to other safes in their price range. They are not good for burglary resistance because they have a RSC sticker. They are good for burglary resistance because of their construction.

They also do not carry a UL fire rating. However, they use the exact same materials as other safes that do have a UL fire rating. The materials are proven. The design is sound. It's a good safe. Can you point to any safe with a UL fire rating that's using gypsum board as it's primary insulation?

There are better safes out there than the AMSEC, but they are not sold in the same price range.

 

[SafeGuy]

Smiley face indeed!

As should be obvious, I have no connection to Sturdy other than being a customer. It is very rare for me to buy something that actually exceeds my expectations, but the Sturdy safe was one such case. I am very confident that amateurs would by stymied by it for hours if not days. (Professionals, well, then you need to start thinking TLR60x6)

Let me just say this about Sturdy safes. I have seen them first hand, and I was not impressed, but that's just my opinion based on numerous other safes I've seen.

Does that mean they won't do the job of keeping your guns safe? Of course not. Many people factor in pride of ownership, and the Sturdy is spartan at best. As for it being superior in any aspect compared to numerous brands which are nationally distributed, I have seen nothing to back up that claim. I'm still waiting for them to come up with some hard numbers to back up their fire claims.

 

[SafeGuy]

An RSC is not the equivalant of a TL-5. On a TL test, you are allowed to use "common hand tools, picking tools, mechanical or portable electric tools, grinding points, carbide drills and pressure applying devices or mechanisms." per your definition.

The RSC test is limited to a very specific set of tools which are clearly stated in their standards. You've read the standards haven't you? This information is important if you're using it as a sales tool.

I'm not using it as a sales tool, I'm saying that's the one area where consumers have independent verification that the safe will in fact withstand a five minute attack by professionals. BTW, that was not my definition of the UL RSC test, it was theirs.

My local police department doesn't employ any safe professionals. In fact, many of the police departments use me for warrant opening.

I'm assuming that what you're getting at is that most safes in homes are not attacked during a burglary. When they are attacked, it's a half assed attempt. This is all true. However, that does not negate the fact that a safe should be purchased for a worst case scenario and suitable for the contents it is protecting.

It all boils down to making a personal risk assessment and buying accordingly. You are correct in that I was saying that average home burglars will make a "half assed attempt" to break into a safe, but from the cops I talk to, it is very rare that they attempt to break into a safe at all, much less have any success in doing so.

They are superior to other safes in their price range. They are not good for burglary resistance because they have a RSC sticker. They are good for burglary resistance because of their construction.

They also do not carry a UL fire rating. However, they use the exact same materials as other safes that do have a UL fire rating. The materials are proven. The design is sound. It's a good safe. Can you point to any safe with a UL fire rating that's using gypsum board as it's primary insulation?

There are better safes out there than the AMSEC, but they are not sold in the same price range.

There you go again grouping all RSC rated safes into the same pile. This simply is not the case. As for fire claims, if the BF Series will pass the UL test, why not test it like they do with their other safes which do have the UL label?

As for a safe having a UL fire rating while using gypsum board, I already pointed one out to you which was in fact made by AMSEC. It was a 30 minute test, but a UL test nonetheless.

 

[warnerwh]

Safeguy: Excuse me for not being clear. What I meant was that dealers should point out good deals of brands they DON'T sell too. This tells me that this person has faith in what he does sell as well as being objective as possible.

 

[SafeGuy]

Safeguy: Excuse me for not being clear. What I meant was that dealers should point out good deals of brands they DON'T sell too. This tells me that this person has faith in what he does sell as well as being objective as possible.

I have no problem pointing out good deals on safes when I'm not doing the selling. However, I have chosen over the years to carry only the safes which have stood the test of time. I know these manufacturers will stand behind their product on the rare occasion when something goes wrong. You can't very well expect me to recommend a safe to someone that I myself wouldn't buy based on my experience.

 

[cuervo]

A semi-related question for SafeGuy and/or a1abdj regarding the uL ratings....

For the RSC ratings, are they looking at the box overall or each of the individual sides plus front or some other method.

For example, do they leave the box in the middle of a room and go straight for a sheet metal side with a hammer and screwdriver, or do they attack the door only, or a combination of all sides and front?

I've seen the video on Youtube with the Liberty Centurion (which I think is a little stacked), but it would seem that if you had an RSC where only the door could be attacked, it seems it would last longer than five minutes, as compared to one where a thief could attack the sides.

 

[SafeGuy]

Edit- Looks like my budget changed, I was looking at some Liberty safes that fits my bill and they were about $2k.
So I would be willing to spend (sigh) $2k.

Spartan, let me give you some examples of $2K safes based on the criteria you mentioned.

Fort Knox Defender Series D6031, $1,990.00. 10GA body, 1/4" & 10GA door. If you want to beef it up, you can go with a 10GA steel inner liner for an additional $175.00 or you can go with a heavier 3/16 body and 3/8 base plate in the door for the same additional expense. 1680 degree, 90 minute fire rating.

Champion Triumph Series T25, $1,550.00. 10GA body, 10GA door (wrapped, double step) 1500 degree, 90 minute fire rating.

 

[a1abdj]

I'm not using it as a sales tool, I'm saying that's the one area where consumers have independent verification that the safe will in fact withstand a five minute attack by professionals. BTW, that was not my definition of the UL RSC test, it was theirs.

You're missing the point. The safe will resist a 5 minute attack by professionals....using what? They won't be using the same tools as in the TL test. It is also not UL's definition. UL doesn't define anything, they have a published standard that is very detailed.

What if I told you that a safe would withstand a five minute professional attack using a plastic spoon. Not nearly as impressive as a safe that would withstand a five minute professional attack using explosives. This is why the details are important.

I'm familiar with the standard. I'm just waiting for you to tell me what tools the standard allows for the RSC test. If you don't know, I would be happy to give you the short version.

It all boils down to making a personal risk assessment and buying accordingly. You are correct in that I was saying that average home burglars will make a "half assed attempt" to break into a safe, but from the cops I talk to, it is very rare that they attempt to break into a safe at all, much less have any success in doing so.

I don't wreck cars very often, but I carry insurance just in case. That's all a safe is. It's a form of insurance. Since fire and theft as so rare, you might at well just leave your guns under your bed.

There you go again grouping all RSC rated safes into the same pile. This simply is not the case. As for fire claims, if the BF Series will pass the UL test, why not test it like they do with their other safes which do have the UL label?

If you're buying a safe based on the RSC label, then they are all in the same pile. If you're buying a safe based on the construction of a safe, then it's clear why the RSC label isn't really that important. It's not like the RSC safes have been sprinkled with magic dust by the safe fairy.

As for a safe having a UL fire rating while using gypsum board, I already pointed one out to you which was in fact made by AMSEC. It was a 30 minute test, but a UL test nonetheless

If a safe doesn't have a 1 hour rating, in my opinion, it doesn't count.

 

[SafeGuy]

A semi-related question for SafeGuy and/or a1abdj regarding the uL ratings....

For the RSC ratings, are they looking at the box overall or each of the individual sides plus front or some other method.

For example, do they leave the box in the middle of a room and go straight for a sheet metal side with a hammer and screwdriver, or do they attack the door only, or a combination of all sides and front?

I've seen the video on Youtube with the Liberty Centurion (which I think is a little stacked), but it would seem that if you had an RSC where only the door could be attacked, it seems it would last longer than five minutes, as compared to one where a thief could attack the sides.

I don't have the specifics on how the techs attack the safes during the RSC test, but I assume they attack it through both the door and the body as is the case with their other tests.

As for the YouTube video, consider these things. This was a planned attack with no regard to the amount of noise it would make. Had the safe been anchored to the floor, the outcome would probably have been different. Again, most home burglars do not break into homes anticipating a safe. They are hit and run types with little or no tools and little or no experience with safes.

 

[a1abdj]

I don't have the specifics on how the techs attack the safes during the RSC test, but I assume they attack it through both the door and the body as is the case with their other tests.

Really. If you're going to tell your customer how important it is that the safe has a particular rating, you better know exactly what that rating means.

I've seen the video on Youtube with the Liberty Centurion (which I think is a little stacked), but it would seem that if you had an RSC where only the door could be attacked, it seems it would last longer than five minutes, as compared to one where a thief could attack the sides.

The tools used in the video would not be allowed for a UL RSC test. Therefore, the safe in the video was being attacked in a fashion that exceeded the safe's rating.

 

[SafeGuy]

You're missing the point. The safe will resist a 5 minute attack by professionals....using what? They won't be using the same tools as in the TL test. It is also not UL's definition. UL doesn't define anything, they have a published standard that is very detailed.

It seems to me that you are the one missing the point. We're talking about a safe being attacked by professionals in a laboratory controlled atmosphere. ANY safe can be compromised given enough time and equipment.

What if I told you that a safe would withstand a five minute professional attack using a plastic spoon. Not nearly as impressive as a safe that would withstand a five minute professional attack using explosives. This is why the details are important.

Now you're just being silly.

I'm familiar with the standard. I'm just waiting for you to tell me what tools the standard allows for the RSC test. If you don't know, I would be happy to give you the short version.

I haven't seen an itemized list of tools used by UL for the RSC test. If you have it, I'd love to see it. Just post a link so we'll all know where you got it.

I don't wreck cars very often, but I carry insurance just in case. That's all a safe is. It's a form of insurance. Since fire and theft as so rare, you might at well just leave your guns under your bed.

You lost me with that one. I'll repeat, it's a matter of making a personal risk assessment and buying accordingly.

If you're buying a safe based on the RSC label, then they are all in the same pile. If you're buying a safe based on the construction of a safe, then it's clear why the RSC label isn't really that important. It's not like the RSC safes have been sprinkled with magic dust by the safe fairy.



If a safe doesn't have a 1 hour rating, in my opinion, it doesn't count.

So, it is your contention that a RSC with a 12GA body is just as secure as one with a 3/16" outer skin and a 10GA inner liner?

Lots of gun safes have 1 hour fire ratings, but not 1 hour UL ratings. That's why it is so difficult for consumers to make head to head comparisons. I just can't understand why you want to place so much value on AMSEC's non-UL fire rating compared to those of others.

Your claim that the BF series uses the same material as a UL listed fire safe doesn't hold up. That would be the same as me building a small block Chevy engine based on the same parts as a NASCAR engineer and expecting to be competitive on the track. I'm afraid it just doesn't work like that in the real world.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Let me just say this about Sturdy safes. I have seen them first hand, and I was not impressed, but that's just my opinion based on numerous other safes I've seen.

That's nice. I shopped for a year before buying, and saw a LOT of "safes." I looked at models as high end as TL30 types.

Sturdy's website has an excellent explanation of how their "safes" are different from most gun RSCs, and apparently better. I recommend it to anyone.

So, we have two satisfied customers of Sturdy and professional safe/vault guy (who doesn't sell Sturdy because they don't have dealers) saying how great they are, and we have a different safe salesman (who, likewise, doesn't sell Sturdy because they don't have dealers) saying he was "not impressed" but not providing any details.

SafeGuy, as the person who started out by complaining that a prior thread was locked, you seem to be doing everything possible to justify the locking of this thread as well.

OP, I hope you are getting useful information from this thread!