Buying a safe

[a1abdj]

It seems to me that you are the one missing the point. We're talking about a safe being attacked by professionals in a laboratory controlled atmosphere. ANY safe can be compromised given enough time and equipment.

Your contention is that a safe with a RSC rating is better than a safe without the rating. Shouldn't we know what the rating entails?

Now you're just being silly.

Guilty. But I'm also pointing out why the details are important. You want to see hard numbers on the fire test. Why don't you know the hard details of the burglary test?

I haven't seen an itemized list of tools used by UL for the RSC test. If you have it, I'd love to see it. Just post a link so we'll all know where you got it.

I do have a list. You can get one yourself straight from UL, or any of their authorized vendors. A printed copy of this standard runs around $800 I believe.

There are no links. I do not get my information from the internet. I get it from my real life dealings in the safe business. I'm going to list the basic RSC requirements in a post below. However, if you're going to use this new information when selling safes, please do not pretend that you obtained it the same way I did.

I just can't understand why you want to place so much value on AMSEC's non-UL fire rating compared to those of others.

Your claim that the BF series uses the same material as a UL listed fire safe doesn't hold up. That would be the same as me building a small block Chevy engine based on the same parts as a NASCAR engineer and expecting to be competitive on the track. I'm afraid it just doesn't work like that in the real world.

Because AMSEC is the only one using material that is found in UL rated safes. It isn't rocket science.

Gypsum board is not used as a primary insulator in safes with UL fire ratings. Ceramic furnace insulation is not used as a primary insulator in safes with UL fire ratings. Fiberglass is not used as a primary insulator in safes with UL fire ratings.

AMSEC's Drylight IS used as a primary insulator in safes with a UL fire rating. The safe may not be rated, and there's probably a good reason why, but you're still closer to the real deal than you are with any of your other options.

 

[SafeGuy]

That's nice. I shopped for a year before buying, and saw a LOT of "safes." I looked at models as high end as TL30 types.

Sturdy's website has an excellent explanation of how their "safes" are different from most gun RSCs, and apparently better. I recommend it to anyone.

So, we have two satisfied customers of Sturdy and professional safe/vault guy (who doesn't sell Sturdy because they don't have dealers) saying how great they are, and we have a different safe salesman (who, likewise, doesn't sell Sturdy because they don't have dealers) saying he was "not impressed" but not providing any details.

SafeGuy, as the person who started out by complaining that a prior thread was locked, you seem to be doing everything possible to justify the locking of this thread as well.

OP, I hope you are getting useful information from this thread!

First, I didn't complain that the other thread was locked. I simply made a statement. If you would like for me to run down a list of things that didn't impress me about the Sturdy, I'd be glad to do that. Then I'm sure somebody would complain that I was bashing Sturdy. Seems I can't win either way.

Like I told the other Sturdy guy, if you're happy with your Sturdy, then I'm happy for you.

 

[a1abdj]

Alright folks, you're going to see it here for the first time that I know of on the internet. Manufacturers and dealers alike subvert this information to make it appear to be more substantial than what it is.

I have never seen these details shared with the public.

Let's take the definition shown above:

RSC (Residential Security Container)

Ability to withstand 5 full minutes of rigorous prying, drilling, punching, chiseling, and tampering attacks by UL technicians.

And add the details (in my own words instead of the legaleze type standard):

1) The safe must use a UL listed lock. The lock can be a group 2, 2M, or 1 mechanical lock, a group 1 electronic lock, a key lock that meets the UL 437 standard.

2) The safe must survive a 5 minute attack using the tools mentioned below. The safe fails the test if the door is opened, or if a 4 inch diameter hole is placed anywhere in the container. UL can attack the safe multiple times, but only using a single attacker familiar with the safe's construction. The attack may be conducted on the door, body, lock, or boltwork of the safe.

3) Hand tools used can not exceed 18" in length. A hammer can not exceed 3 pounds. Hand tools can include hammers, chisels, pry bars, screwdrivers, wrenches, and punches.

4) Only one power tool may be used for the test. A variable speed drill with a bit no larger than 1/4" in diameter.

5) If the safe is constructed with anchor holes, the safe will be anchored for the test.

 

[SafeGuy]

Your contention is that a safe with a RSC rating is better than a safe without the rating. Shouldn't we know what the rating entails?



Guilty. But I'm also pointing out why the details are important. You want to see hard numbers on the fire test. Why don't you know the hard details of the burglary test?



I do have a list. You can get one yourself straight from UL, or any of their authorized vendors. A printed copy of this standard runs around $800 I believe.

There are no links. I do not get my information from the internet. I get it from my real life dealings in the safe business. I'm going to list the basic RSC requirements in a post below. However, if you're going to use this new information when selling safes, please do not pretend that you obtained it the same way I did.



Because AMSEC is the only one using material that is found in UL rated safes. It isn't rocket science.

Gypsum board is not used as a primary insulator in safes with UL fire ratings. Ceramic furnace insulation is not used as a primary insulator in safes with UL fire ratings. Fiberglass is not used as a primary insulator in safes with UL fire ratings.

AMSEC's Drylight IS used as a primary insulator in safes with a UL fire rating. The safe may not be rated, and there's probably a good reason why, but you're still closer to the real deal than you are with any of your other options.

OK, this is getting a tad boring, so I won't take the time to do a point by point. You want to make an issue of the tools used by UL to come up with the RSC test, but you don't want to share them. Not sure what to make of that, but it really isn't an issue unless you are challenging the credibility of UL. I am not a safe manufacturer, neither are you, so I suppose it's a moot point. Why would you want to spend $800 to obtain a list of tools used to attack a safe during the RSC test knowing full well that would not be the method of choice if you, as a locksmith, needed to open such a safe due to a lock failure etc.?

As for the BF series fire rating, all you have to do is look at the weights of those safes vs their UL fire rated safes to see why there is no way they would pass the same test. Sure, it may use the same type of material as their UL listed fire safes, but there is obviously less of it. With that, their claims carry no more weight than those of other manufacturers claiming the same or better ratings using a greater thickness of gypsum board.

I haven't looked, but does AMSEC show any details as to the parameters of their test which yielded their rating for the BF series?

 

[SafeGuy]

Alright folks, you're going to see it here for the first time that I know of on the internet. Manufacturers and dealers alike subvert this information to make it appear to be more substantial than what it is.

I have never seen these details shared with the public.

Let's take the definition shown above:



And add the details (in my own words instead of the legaleze type standard):

1) The safe must use a UL listed lock. The lock can be a group 2, 2M, or 1 mechanical lock, a group 1 electronic lock, a key lock that meets the UL 437 standard.

2) The safe must survive a 5 minute attack using the tools mentioned below. The safe fails the test if the door is opened, or if a 4 inch diameter hole is placed anywhere in the container. UL can attack the safe multiple times, but only using a single attacker familiar with the safe's construction. The attack may be conducted on the door, body, lock, or boltwork of the safe.

3) Hand tools used can not exceed 18" in length. A hammer can not exceed 3 pounds. Hand tools can include hammers, chisels, pry bars, screwdrivers, wrenches, and punches.

4) Only one power tool may be used for the test. A variable speed drill with a bit no larger than 1/4" in diameter.

5) If the safe is constructed with anchor holes, the safe will be anchored for the test.

OOPS! Sorry A1, I didn't see this post before I questioned why you didn't post your $800 list.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Gentlemen, while there is no doubt that some valuable information is being shared, let's try to keep the bickering to a minimum and discuss your disagreements in a calm and professional manner.

 

[SafeGuy]

Alright folks, you're going to see it here for the first time that I know of on the internet. Manufacturers and dealers alike subvert this information to make it appear to be more substantial than what it is.

I have never seen these details shared with the public.

Let's take the definition shown above:



And add the details (in my own words instead of the legaleze type standard):

1) The safe must use a UL listed lock. The lock can be a group 2, 2M, or 1 mechanical lock, a group 1 electronic lock, a key lock that meets the UL 437 standard.

2) The safe must survive a 5 minute attack using the tools mentioned below. The safe fails the test if the door is opened, or if a 4 inch diameter hole is placed anywhere in the container. UL can attack the safe multiple times, but only using a single attacker familiar with the safe's construction. The attack may be conducted on the door, body, lock, or boltwork of the safe.

3) Hand tools used can not exceed 18" in length. A hammer can not exceed 3 pounds. Hand tools can include hammers, chisels, pry bars, screwdrivers, wrenches, and punches.

4) Only one power tool may be used for the test. A variable speed drill with a bit no larger than 1/4" in diameter.

5) If the safe is constructed with anchor holes, the safe will be anchored for the test.

OK, now that I have the apology out of the way, let's take a look at this. Not sure why you chose to put their list into your own words, but it makes no difference in my claim that not all RSC's are the same.

Let's take your average home burglar who just happens upon a house. Would you think he would be carrying tools over 18" in length, hammers, chisels, pry bars, screwdrivers, wrenches, and punches? How about a variable speed drill?

Bottom line is, the RSC test is still a uniform test performed by a third party. I would rather have that than some manufacturer's claim that their safe would pass the test, but they just don't want to have it tested for whatever reason.

Like I told you before, the first safe submitted to UL by Browning/Pro-Steel did NOT pass this test. Now if you think they put out a memo on this, I have some oceanfront property in Tenna Sea I'd like to sell you. I still have some contacts at AMSEC I could check with, but I'm pretty sure their first attempt at passing met with failure as well.

 

[a1abdj]

Why would you want to spend $800 to obtain a list of tools used to attack a safe during the RSC test knowing full well that would not be the method of choice if you, as a locksmith, needed to open such a safe due to a lock failure etc.?

Well in this case, I didn't spend $800. I just borrowed a copy from a manufacturer who is required to own their own copy.

Regardless, I keep this information for the same reason that any other professional keeps information related to their trades. Lawyers have libraries full of books pertaining to law. Doctors have stacks of mecial journals related to medicine. Real safe guys also tend to collect whatever materials they can get their hands on that are related to their trade.

As for the BF series fire rating, all you have to do is look at the weights of those safes vs their UL fire rated safes to see why there is no way they would pass the same test. Sure, it may use the same type of material as their UL listed fire safes, but there is obviously less of it.

The BF series is more than just their gun safe. The BF series is actually a light commercial/heavy residential line of safes. They just so happen to convert one of the larger units into a gun safe. The main difference between the gun safe and the smaller safes is that the smaller safes use a 10 gauge outer wall with a 10 gauge inner wall. The gun safe uses a 10 gauge outer wall with a 14 gauge inner wall.

The three smallest safes carry a UL 1 hour fire test (BF1512, BF1716, and BF2116) using the same Drylight insulation that is used on the larger gun safe.

 

[SafeGuy]

Gentlemen, while there is no doubt that some valuable information is being shared, let's try to keep the bickering to a minimum and discuss your disagreements in a calm and professional manner.

I'm doing my best Jorg.

 

[KSDeputy]

Fort Knox

I own two Fort Knox safes, and have been well pleased with them. One has just shelves, the other is larger and has room for long guns and pistols. I got them from A.G. English company. Their delivery and service is great.

 

[SafeGuy]

Well in this case, I didn't spend $800. I just borrowed a copy from a manufacturer who is required to own their own copy.

Regardless, I keep this information for the same reason that any other professional keeps information related to their trades. Lawyers have libraries full of books pertaining to law. Doctors have stacks of mecial journals related to medicine. Real safe guys also tend to collect whatever materials they can get their hands on that are related to their trade.

That makes sense that you'd want to keep it, but I'm not sure why. It would be helpful to a manufacturer to know what they're up against with a test, but beyond that I can't see where it would be useful to you as a locksmith.

The BF series is more than just their gun safe. The BF series is actually a light commercial/heavy residential line of safes. They just so happen to convert one of the larger units into a gun safe. The main difference between the gun safe and the smaller safes is that the smaller safes use a 10 gauge outer wall with a 10 gauge inner wall. The gun safe uses a 10 gauge outer wall with a 14 gauge inner wall.

The three smallest safes carry a UL 1 hour fire test (BF1512, BF1716, and BF2116) using the same Drylight insulation that is used on the larger gun safe.

Yep, they've been building the BF Series for years before punching it out to gun safe size. As you know, the AMVAULT was converted into a gun safe as well and still carries the same TL15 and fire ratings as the original. They are just too darn heavy for residential use, and they're too small inside given how thick the walls and door are.

Yes, the litte BF series have a UL 1 hour label because they have far less steel surface area to absorb heat. That only confirms my claim that you can't just take existing technology and work it into something different and expect the same end result. Did you have any luck finding fire test parameters for the BF Series gun safes?

 

[SafeGuy]

I own two Fort Knox safes, and have been well pleased with them. One has just shelves, the other is larger and has room for long guns and pistols. I got them from A.G. English company. Their delivery and service is great.

Give my best to Tony... he's a legend in his own mind! LOL

 

[a1abdj]

Not sure why you chose to put their list into your own words

My words take up a lot less space than their words. They may also take issue with me typing out their standard word for word so that others can read it without paying for it.

but it makes no difference in my claim that not all RSC's are the same.

I don't have a problem with your claim that not all RSC's are the same. They aren't. I have a problem with the thought that the RSC label is important. Especially when comparing a safe with the label to a safe without the label.

Let's take your average home burglar who just happens upon a house. Would you think he would be carrying tools over 18" in length, hammers, chisels, pry bars, screwdrivers, wrenches, and punches? How about a variable speed drill?

They probably wouldn't, unless they were targeting your safe. However, many people do have these tools (and bigger, and heavier) in their garages.

Bottom line is, the RSC test is still a uniform test performed by a third party. I would rather have that than some manufacturer's claim that their safe would pass the test, but they just don't want to have it tested for whatever reason.

So you would suggest using a safe with 1/10" walls and a 1/10" door that has the RSC label, over a safe using a 1/4" wall and a 1/2" door that does not have the RSC label?

Like I told you before, the first safe submitted to UL by Browning/Pro-Steel did NOT pass this test. Now if you think they put out a memo on this, I have some oceanfront property in Tenna Sea I'd like to sell you. I still have some contacts at AMSEC I could check with, but I'm pretty sure their first attempt at passing met with failure as well.

Perhaps these two companies were toying with UL to see how weak of a test this really was? It would be an expensive joke, but some people have more money than they know what to do with.

Like I've said before, there are car doors that would keep somebody with a 3 pound hammer and 18" screwdriver out for more than 5 minutes (not counting going through the glass).

 

[SafeGuy]

Gotta run A1, but we'll have more fun later.

 

[Z-Michigan]

However, many people do have these tools (and bigger, and heavier) in their garages.

Yes. For instance, some of us have cobalt and carbide drill bits. Among such people, some of us, after reading THR posts, keep such drill bits locked inside their "safe," so they can't be used to open it up.

 

[pjripple]

Hi all. I just wanted to say hello as I've been lurking around here for a week or so. This is my first post. I think I've read about a million posts here so far, some great information, but as with most things in life it's up to me to sift through the b.s. to find what is important to me. I'm hoping to find a gun safe, or RSC, for $3,000 or less if possible. I want to store only a few guns right now, but I'm sure I'll have more soon. I went out last weekend to a local shop that had only AMSEC. On paper I thought I'd be interested in the BF6030, but in person it seemed little small, and I really liked the BF6636. The price wasn't bad either, within my original budget. I just have to reconcile a few other concerns that I have, but I'm getting close. I've also been wrestling with the idea of stepping up to a "real" safe, but don't know if I want to spend $5,000 or more. Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I think it was a little off of the OP's topic anyway.

 

[Z-Michigan]

PJ-

First off, welcome.

It sounds like money isn't too big an issue for you. You should put serious thought into what you're storing. (I recommend NOT posting all the details here, for hopefully obvious reasons.) For instance, if you have registered machineguns (irreplaceable) you would probably do well to get a serious TL30 or better real safe. If you have rare collector's guns, you will want plenty of fire protection.

If your collection is more typical (like 99% of us), the RSC "safes" you're looking at are probably a great choice. Certainly AMSEC will be a solid product. I would suggest you also compare the Sturdy safes in the same size range, though I wouldn't hesitate to get the AMSEC if you decide that it's what you prefer.

 

[a1abdj]

PJ,

These types of threads always head off on tangents as different questions and opinions come to light.

Those shopping for gun safes tend to fall into a few categories. You have those that are looking to spend $600 or less. The majority of gun safe buyers tend to be looking in the $1,500 to $2,000 range. Then you have those where the budget is whatever it costs to buy what they like.

The OP falls in the majority of owners, and as stated previously, the AMSEC and Sturdy have a lot to offer in that price range.

Your budget would allow you to get a larger version of either of these safes, but you are quickly approaching "real safe" money. To give you an idea, you can buy a safe with a TL30X6 burglary rating and a 2 hour fire rating that would give you interior dimensions of roughly 68x36x24 for $6,000.

 

[MarkDozier]

My dollars worth,
get at least 10 guage in the door and walls
Get double the size you need,
Get removeable shelves. a 10/20 safe will hold 10 to 20 guns but most likelyabout 18 guns. This is really dependent on the kiid of guns you have
If you can get one with top and bottom bolts?
What is a relockerm Is there a double relocker
Ask about the fire resistance and how is it determined> What is the material use in the fire protection?
What kind of locks do you offer?
Why is you safe beeter then your competion/
Is the shipping free? What is included in the shipping?
Ask abut extras theye are willing to kick in or price adjustments. I saved a 100 bucks by asking a question
Don't accept half anwsers to qustions. If you don't understand something ask untill you do.
What is the weight>
Does it have a predilled hole for dehumidaifer cord?
what is the overall dimension Inside and outside?
What exactly doe the warttanty cover?

I spent about 3 days culling out and writing up questions to ask as I looked at various sites and what their videos.

I juist bought my safe, free shipping, no sales tax saved a 100 buks on the price SO I am about 240 bucks ahead.
Ohh ammo money...

 

[pjripple]

Z-Michigan,

Thanks for the reply. I'll check out the Sturdy safes...haven't looked at them yet. I'm a 99%er. I don't have anything special, but I figure that whatever I buy I'll have for the rest of my life, so I'd prefer to buy it only once....maybe over-buy for now, but I hope to grow into it in the future.

 

[Zip7]

Well, I just bought 2 safes.

I am not a safe expert. I am concerned with theft - not fire. I own many, many tools. I have worked in the oilfield. I can tear up a titanium bowling ball, and have the tools to do it. I own several pry bars that are 6' long.

I looked at many common brand gun safes in stores, and my litmus test was... can I ram a 50 pound 6' long tanker bar through the side of this thing? I saw one that would pass that test, and it was $5K (A large Fort Knox Titan). I saved some money and bought two smaller Sturdys. They are heavy and well built enough to keep out smash and grabbers as smart and well equipped as me, and since IMO I am probably the smartest and most well equipped guy I know, I should be fine...

 

[pjripple]

a1-

Thanks for the input. I keep looking toward the "real safe" arena, but I just haven't been able to justify that much money. I don't have unlimited funds, but I'm willing to wait and save for a purchase that makes sense or I really want. Right now the AMSEC BF6636 (or its equivalent) makes sense to me. I don't plan on making my decision for another month or two, so I'll keep looking around for a while.

 

[leadcounsel]

+1 for www.sturdysafe.com. I own one and just bought a second one. Best safe for the money in my opinion.

 

[SafeGuy]

My dollars worth,
get at least 10 guage in the door and walls
Get double the size you need,
Get removeable shelves. a 10/20 safe will hold 10 to 20 guns but most likelyabout 18 guns. This is really dependent on the kiid of guns you have
If you can get one with top and bottom bolts?
What is a relockerm Is there a double relocker
Ask about the fire resistance and how is it determined> What is the material use in the fire protection?
What kind of locks do you offer?
Why is you safe beeter then your competion/
Is the shipping free? What is included in the shipping?
Ask abut extras theye are willing to kick in or price adjustments. I saved a 100 bucks by asking a question
Don't accept half anwsers to qustions. If you don't understand something ask untill you do.
What is the weight>
Does it have a predilled hole for dehumidaifer cord?
what is the overall dimension Inside and outside?
What exactly doe the warttanty cover?

I spent about 3 days culling out and writing up questions to ask as I looked at various sites and what their videos.

I juist bought my safe, free shipping, no sales tax saved a 100 buks on the price SO I am about 240 bucks ahead.
Ohh ammo money...

I hate to rain on your parade, but there is no such thing as free shipping. You can purchase a safe at a price that includes shipping, but you're still paying for it unless these outfits have found somebody who will deliver them for free. That just doesn't happen.

As for saving $100 on the price, you just fell for another factory direct sales gimmick if you did in fact buy from one of these factory direct outfits. Now if you did your homework and found the same safe at several different companies, you would have saved $100 if you got one of them to knock that much off.

That's one of the problems with buying factory direct as you really have no basis for price comparison. All you get is, "our safes are as good or better than their's... blah, blah, blah... and we cut out the middleman." Add to that you're most likely buying sight unseen and can't go anywhere else to view the product, and you're taking one heck of a chance. Sounds like you're happy with what you got, so again, I'm happy for you. Not everyone who takes such a path has the same experience.

 

[SafeGuy]

My words take up a lot less space than their words. They may also take issue with me typing out their standard word for word so that others can read it without paying for it.

Fair enough.

I don't have a problem with your claim that not all RSC's are the same. They aren't. I have a problem with the thought that the RSC label is important. Especially when comparing a safe with the label to a safe without the label.

So in other words, you would be comfortable with a safe built in some guy's garage as long as he used the same steel thickness and lock that he saw on a safe at the local safe dealer? Again, it boils down to having at least some assurance from an independent, professional source.

They probably wouldn't, unless they were targeting your safe. However, many people do have these tools (and bigger, and heavier) in their garages.

Yes, many safe owners have tools and torches within a few feet of their safes. Again, we're talking random B&E here. I can count on one hand the number of safes I've had broken into over the past 30 years. Talk to your local police department and they will tell you that home burglars are usually in and out in less than ten minutes.

So you would suggest using a safe with 1/10" walls and a 1/10" door that has the RSC label, over a safe using a 1/4" wall and a 1/2" door that does not have the RSC label?

Nope, not just based on that alone. I covered that in the analogy of some guy building a safe in his garage. Any competent welder can make a steel box and a door, but there is way more to it than that as you know.

Perhaps these two companies were toying with UL to see how weak of a test this really was? It would be an expensive joke, but some people have more money than they know what to do with.

There you go being silly again.

Seriously, you listed the type tools UL used in their RSC test, but you didn't tell us anything about how they went about using the tools. Again, being the new guy on this forum, I assume you have shared with everyone that a professional can defeat any of the gun safes we've talked about by drilling one hole. This is not something they can do without specific knowledge either from their own experience of that gained through the manufacturer, so it's not an issue in a real world situation.

Like I've said before, there are car doors that would keep somebody with a 3 pound hammer and 18" screwdriver out for more than 5 minutes (not counting going through the glass).

So you're telling people to lock their guns up in their cars?

It was my turn to be silly.