Mike In Charleston
Member
SP - I bought the Cannon 21 gun safe several months ago from Tractor Supply and IIRC it was right around $650. Bring a couple of friends to get it set up.
Buying a safe
- Thread starter spartanpride
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a1abdj
Member
Yes, I would be comfortable with that. Assuming the guy knew how to weld and the safe was a sound design. I am not a manufacturer, but I have full fabrication ability. I could build a safe "in my garage" that would blow away anything a gun safe manufacturer could come up with.
There are a lot of large reputable companies that started out of garages. Let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum. You don't seem to be a big fan of AMSEC, but they are one of the largest safe manufacturers in the US that has been in business since the 1940s (starting in what amounts to a garage). They have a facility, tooling, and staff that most gun safe manufacturers will never have.
That's where my assurances come in.
You're talking random breaking and entering. I'm talking total risk. You could be the victim of a random burglar. You could also be the specific target of a burglar. When it comes to safe cracking, the second group has more safes opened that the first. This is why you need to match the the safe to the total risk.
When was the last time you've heard of a bank vault being broken into here in the US? It is so rare that you've probably never even heard of one. However, that doesn't mean that they should lock of their money in a gun safe. The vault is designed for the real and potential threat that exists.
They can use them anyway they like. I'm assuming they would use the hammer for beating, the pry bar for prying, and the drill for drilling.
Yes, but only using tools not allowed under the UL RSC test. Those two guys on the Security On Sale video used two prybars (also not allowed under the UL RSC test), and had that safe opened faster than I could have taken my drill rig out of the box and chucked a bit.
No, but I have often told them to install a deadbolt on a closet and use it instead of some of these lower priced safes.
SafeGuy
Member
I think we've pretty much beat this one to death, so I'll put an end to the redundancy. As for AMSEC, had they not done some very stupid things a few years ago, I would still be handling them today. They are the only company out there who is building both commercial and gun safes, and their experience is unmatched. However, they are just as guilty of the smoke and mirrors game as the next guy when it comes to their gun safes.
Here are some easy straight forward questions.
Lets say 72 X 36to41 X 25to29 dimensions.
For $1500 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $2000 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $2500 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $3000 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $3500 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $4000 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
Brand = AMSEC, Ft Knox, Sturdy, Champion, etc, etc.
Level = Titan, Executive, Triumph, Trophy etc, etc.
Don't be afraid to say your favorite safes/RSC's are it, just say why. Some actual steel type & thicknesses would be nice. Are any of the thick doors wrapped in steel OK? (vs a single plate of 1/4" or 1/2" steel) What is the thickness of those steel coverings. Why is one good and the other not?
I haven't seen an actual preference by one of you guys yet, or I may have missed it. Thanks. AC
Lets say 72 X 36to41 X 25to29 dimensions.
For $1500 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $2000 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $2500 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $3000 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $3500 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
For $4000 what dimension, brand & level of that brand, safe/RSC would you guys recommend & why?
Brand = AMSEC, Ft Knox, Sturdy, Champion, etc, etc.
Level = Titan, Executive, Triumph, Trophy etc, etc.
Don't be afraid to say your favorite safes/RSC's are it, just say why. Some actual steel type & thicknesses would be nice. Are any of the thick doors wrapped in steel OK? (vs a single plate of 1/4" or 1/2" steel) What is the thickness of those steel coverings. Why is one good and the other not?
I haven't seen an actual preference by one of you guys yet, or I may have missed it. Thanks. AC
SafeGuy
Member
Sorry, safes don't come in $500 increments.
Z-Michigan
Member
Question for anyone with the expertise: what is a typical steel alloy for a quality RSC (like AMSEC or Sturdy) and what would it be hardened to?
Just curious, because when I mounted my Sturdy I decided to drill different mounting holes than the ones it came with, and I destroyed two TiN coated bits, even while using cutting oil, before switching to cobalt bits. I had wrongly assumed that the thing was mild steel, and obviously it's something fairly hard.
Just curious, because when I mounted my Sturdy I decided to drill different mounting holes than the ones it came with, and I destroyed two TiN coated bits, even while using cutting oil, before switching to cobalt bits. I had wrongly assumed that the thing was mild steel, and obviously it's something fairly hard.
SafeGuy
Member
I can assure you your Sturdy does not have hardened steel in the body nor do any of the national brands of gun safe. There will be hardened steel to protect the lock, but that's it.
SafeGuy
Member
There were two reasons I dropped AMSEC. One had to do with their new line-up, the other had to do with business practices I found to be unacceptable.
They hired a new national sales manager with zero experience in safes. He came in and had two price increases right off the bat just to make the company more profitable. Add to that they went backward in terms of features, and it made for a very uncompetitive product. The double whammy was more than I was willing to deal with, so I waved goodbye. That was about 10 years ago.
Z-Michigan
Member
Two brand-new but dulled to destruction TiN drill bits say you're wrong, SafeGuy. The cobalt bits worked but didn't exactly cut like butter. They were also brand new. I was using a heavy duty (1hp?) Milwaukee hammer drill (set on non-hammer, of course). The professional locksmith* who works for a bank maintenance company who was helping me didn't seem surprised that the steel was hardened. But what does he know, he mostly works on bank vaults. (*and uncle)
SafeGuy
Member
Hey, ask Sturdy if you think I'm wrong.
SafeGuy
Member
It's not a matter of imagination, it's a matter of fact.
I sell 72 x 40 safes which run anywhere from $1,145 to over $10K, but they don't come in $500 increments.
I sell 72 x 40 safes which run anywhere from $1,145 to over $10K, but they don't come in $500 increments.
CoRoMo
Member
The price always ends with $----9.99
david_the_greek
Member
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- Nov 2, 2005
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man I was looking forward to reading this thread before all that back and forth bickering :-(
All right, round up, but please give us an answer of which ones you like and why? That should be easy enough. Which ones and why. I'll even narrow it down. Lets say between 2K & 3K as well as between 3K & 4K.
The price always ends with $----9.99
LOL. I liked that one.
a1abdj
Member
Most safes are using A36 steel as their primary material. Some companies will refer to it as "high carbon" or some other name that sounded good in a marketing meeting. Safeguy is correct in that most gun safes will only have a harder material protecting the lock. Although none of the gun safe companies that I'm aware of are using it, some of the best "hard plate" on the market is not steel.
I have never encountered a gun safe that I couldn't put a hole in with a standard twist bit. Some of the higher end commercial plate safes use alloy doors which can prove a bit more stubborn.
They have made a lot of changes in 10 years. This is true for most gun safe manufacturers. I would say that across the board, most of these changes have been backwards.
Well if we all agreed, we wouldn't be able to explore differerent ideas.
Z-Michigan
Member
Thanks. Is A36 pretty much "mild steel"? Is there any chance it would have been case hardened or heat treated?
I guess it's possible that my first two bits were not good quality, though I have used others from the same set with no problem. And I have drilled through known mild steel (e.g. gate hardware) with no effort in comparison. I may have to call Sturdy and ask what they use!
MarkDozier
Member.
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- May 15, 2006
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Ok,
Safeguy we are all imoressed with how much you say you know, but would you mind answering the question posed to you.
I think this forum about sharing what you know or have learned that would help the OP,
Share or shut up.
My dollar two ninty eight opinion
Safeguy we are all imoressed with how much you say you know, but would you mind answering the question posed to you.
I think this forum about sharing what you know or have learned that would help the OP,
Share or shut up.
My dollar two ninty eight opinion
winston smith
Member
I bought a Liberty safe last year. Local store, delivery, etc.
Most major brands of safes in the $1.5K to $2.5K range are OK; maybe the Sturdy and AMSEC safes are "better" for theft resistance, but "most" burglery events will not last long enough to open a safe if it is bolted down.
Insurance costs, even for peace of mind. You are more likely to have a fire anyway.
One reason everyone says buy a bigger safe than you think you need is that gun safes are not made to hold guns(!), as much as stuff. The one exception seems to be Browning's DPX interiors. Manufacturers should have better options for interiors, but then they would not encourage the sale of larger and more profitable models.
I camoflaged my safe to look like one of 3 storage units. Out of sight...
Most major brands of safes in the $1.5K to $2.5K range are OK; maybe the Sturdy and AMSEC safes are "better" for theft resistance, but "most" burglery events will not last long enough to open a safe if it is bolted down.
Insurance costs, even for peace of mind. You are more likely to have a fire anyway.
One reason everyone says buy a bigger safe than you think you need is that gun safes are not made to hold guns(!), as much as stuff. The one exception seems to be Browning's DPX interiors. Manufacturers should have better options for interiors, but then they would not encourage the sale of larger and more profitable models.
I camoflaged my safe to look like one of 3 storage units. Out of sight...
The Liberty dealer at my locale has a reputation for being discreet and having good customer service. Looking back it may have been worth considering them more closely. The AMSEC dealer did a good job in the installation part, but they did not cover up the safe. While I presently have good neighbors and have a decent rapport with them, it isn't a good idea to advertise that you have a safe. Bottom line, it's really my fault by not talking with the installation people beforehand. They probably would have done something.
I had one neighbor who was watching the install come by later and joked about bringing diamonds to hide in my safe. I replied, "Do you keep diamonds in your house? I certainly do not." He got my meaning. As a side note: He probably does not own firearms because all he saw was this Big O' safe, and not recognize that it was obviously a gun safe.
This isn't all bad. Nosy neighbors (including me) that observe unusual activity are an excellent first line of defence against burglars or intruders.
While I understand that a typical smash and grab burglary is fleeting, my unfortunate experience with burglars in my younger days, is that they're a bit more unpredictable. I guess I had more than my fair share of desperate burglars that will take on anything including a safe (if it's there). They were not intimidated just because it looks tough. Whatever setup you have, it better have decent resistance to attack; the more the better.
IME, you really want to make it difficult for them every step of the way from the edge of your property to throughout your home. Slowing them down anyway you can helps. In buying a safe, if you can get more burglary resistance for the same cost, why not?
This really depends on your location. The above mentioned line is the probability spread throughout the country. In bad neighborhoods the number of burglaries can be alarming. In one street (where I lived some time ago) just about every house was burglarized in less than a year. Many homes had multiple break-ins. This included places with pit-bulls and bars on the windows. The places that did not have these defenses were hit much more often.
Hopefully one does not live in such a location. Nevertheless, neighborhoods can change over time. It wasn't always that way in the above mentioned case. In bad economic times, even in a good neighborhood, there can be a spike in crime. I do not know if the chances of getting a fire change that much over time in a given location. Increase in fire danger depends on cutbacks to fire services or maybe climate change
If you live in a high fire danger region with low crime rates, of course, fire protection would be paramount. I would even consider a rated fire safe/cabinet instead and not worry too much about burglary resistance.
Off-tangent and this is just an opinion: Bad neighborhoods have a far higher property crime rate than what shows on the reported statistics. Many residents have given up calling the police because it just doesn't do much good, and frankly many do not trust the police. In good neighborhoods that have a well-supported police infrastructure, the reported property crime rate is closer to the actual since police services are not overburdened as much. These residents also tend to expect more from city services. It is my contention that bad neighborhoods are even worse than what is indicated. I know this is Captain Obvious, but moving to a good neighborhood is the best way to prevent burglary.
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Fella's;
A direct answer to a posed question: I currently have on the floor, in the shop, a Graffunder B7240. It is approx 72" tall, 40" wide, and 27.5" deep. The steel is A36, the insulation is a proprietary concrete mixture. There is a continuous steel inner liner. The door is a 1/2" thick single slab of plate with the lockworks contained behind it. The lock itself is also surrounded by additional plate. At least one, two, or three, relockers are present. The placement & number are at random to enhance security. It weighs 2100 lbs. empty, has a burgundy gloss paint panel on the door, and brass hardware. There are 36 slots available in the convertible interior. It's selling price is $5,950.00.
Graffunder's are built to order. That's what this particular unit costs, but it's ballpark for that size & weight. A B level unit is the minimum U.L. construction rating that Graffunder builds to. You can get heavier if you care to.
900F
A direct answer to a posed question: I currently have on the floor, in the shop, a Graffunder B7240. It is approx 72" tall, 40" wide, and 27.5" deep. The steel is A36, the insulation is a proprietary concrete mixture. There is a continuous steel inner liner. The door is a 1/2" thick single slab of plate with the lockworks contained behind it. The lock itself is also surrounded by additional plate. At least one, two, or three, relockers are present. The placement & number are at random to enhance security. It weighs 2100 lbs. empty, has a burgundy gloss paint panel on the door, and brass hardware. There are 36 slots available in the convertible interior. It's selling price is $5,950.00.
Graffunder's are built to order. That's what this particular unit costs, but it's ballpark for that size & weight. A B level unit is the minimum U.L. construction rating that Graffunder builds to. You can get heavier if you care to.
900F
SafeGuy
Member
Hey, if you can get that much for that opinion, I should start selling mine.
I'll be happy to address a specific question, but I really don't want to have to write a book in terms of addressing those that aren't. If you saw a specific question you would like to have answered, for whatever reason, I'd be glad to give it a shot.
SafeGuy
Member
Sorry if I appear dense, but what is your question?
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