If you get a C&R license is it ok to sell off guns you don't like? I am not trying to be a firearms dealer I would just like to know if there are any legal repercussions to one selling a gun they got with their C&R license. I don't have a license yet but don't want to be stuck with a gun just because I get one.
C&R license selling
- Thread starter snakeman
- Start date
- Status
Eh hem... you two should read the rules and regs of being a C&R licensee. In simple terms, No you may not sell a C&R gun just because you don't like it. This action makes you a defacto dealer and need a full FFL 01 license to do such.
You may buy, sell, and trade in order to "enhance your collection", but in no way or form can you buy a firearm to turn around and sell it again (at a profit or loss) simply because you don't like it (find some way to make the selling of it "enhance your collection").
You must also keep a detailed log of what you have bought/sold/traded.
You may buy, sell, and trade in order to "enhance your collection", but in no way or form can you buy a firearm to turn around and sell it again (at a profit or loss) simply because you don't like it (find some way to make the selling of it "enhance your collection").
You must also keep a detailed log of what you have bought/sold/traded.
Yes, which is why I quoted that. The OP did not ask that, nor phrase his question in that manner however. I made sure to cover the legal side of selling his firearm though for posterity.
To his original question, the answer is NO.
Also, you're "argument" must be documented in your bindings with what you sold, how much you sold it for (I think the price must be included, I'll have to recheck my C&R stuff), and what you recieved (that enhanced your collection). This is done solely in the off chance that you are audited by the ATF though, which I've never heard of any one who holds a C&R having done on them.
To his original question, the answer is NO.
Also, you're "argument" must be documented in your bindings with what you sold, how much you sold it for (I think the price must be included, I'll have to recheck my C&R stuff), and what you recieved (that enhanced your collection). This is done solely in the off chance that you are audited by the ATF though, which I've never heard of any one who holds a C&R having done on them.
OldMac
Member
You never sell but you can dispose.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Always seems to be so much misinformation about C&Rs.
YES you can sell C&R firearms you simply don't like. That's what "enhance your collection" means. If I don't like it why would it be enhancing my collection? If I have an OK K31 and I run across one that's mint I can dump my old one for the better one.
YES you can buy multiples of the same gun, find the best one, and sell the rest. That too enhances your collection.
If you are going to quote the regs in your post you should really cite them. If you do you will find that nothing you say here is right. Simply selling a gun does NOT make you a defacto dealer, regardless of your reason for selling it.
** Don't take my word for it, go read all the laws and ATF letters yourself. There are literally hundreds of letters from ATF to people asking these questions.
I'll post back here in a few minutes with the actual cites of law, plus an ATF letter clarifying some of this.
YES you can sell C&R firearms you simply don't like. That's what "enhance your collection" means. If I don't like it why would it be enhancing my collection? If I have an OK K31 and I run across one that's mint I can dump my old one for the better one.
YES you can buy multiples of the same gun, find the best one, and sell the rest. That too enhances your collection.
If you are going to quote the regs in your post you should really cite them. If you do you will find that nothing you say here is right. Simply selling a gun does NOT make you a defacto dealer, regardless of your reason for selling it.
** Don't take my word for it, go read all the laws and ATF letters yourself. There are literally hundreds of letters from ATF to people asking these questions.
I'll post back here in a few minutes with the actual cites of law, plus an ATF letter clarifying some of this.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
OK, first the actual law:
Definitions first, and these really are important to understand. The definitions are NOT fuzzy. Most of this is in GCA:
Important term there, "in the business", also defined:
Read it carefully. To be a dealer you must be "in the business". C&R is clearly not in the business as long as you meet the exceptions in the law. Notice there is no discussion of quantity or reason in the selling part.
The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" is defined and this is especially important because this is where "intent" comes in:
Note that nowhere in the law are there any discussions of how many guns, how long you have to keep them, or any of the other nonsense that's tossed around regularly. Those things simply do not enter into the law.
It's also important to note that you CAN sell a firearm as a C&R and make a profit on it, that making a profit is not the defining factor of "in the business".
Certainly if you are ever put under the microscope by ATF you need to be able to demonstrate that you are not meeting the definition of in the business, and if you are dealing in C&R to such a quantity where that might happen then absolutely, it's time for an 01FFL.
Keep good records, including money info, and follow the law.
Definitions first, and these really are important to understand. The definitions are NOT fuzzy. Most of this is in GCA:
Important term there, "in the business", also defined:
Read it carefully. To be a dealer you must be "in the business". C&R is clearly not in the business as long as you meet the exceptions in the law. Notice there is no discussion of quantity or reason in the selling part.
The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" is defined and this is especially important because this is where "intent" comes in:
Note that nowhere in the law are there any discussions of how many guns, how long you have to keep them, or any of the other nonsense that's tossed around regularly. Those things simply do not enter into the law.
It's also important to note that you CAN sell a firearm as a C&R and make a profit on it, that making a profit is not the defining factor of "in the business".
Certainly if you are ever put under the microscope by ATF you need to be able to demonstrate that you are not meeting the definition of in the business, and if you are dealing in C&R to such a quantity where that might happen then absolutely, it's time for an 01FFL.
Keep good records, including money info, and follow the law.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Last, a letter from ATF to a C&R who asked some of these questions. All pages are included but page 3 addresses most of what this thread is about. ATF emphasizes the legal definitions above, especially "engaged in the business".
P1 http://postimage.org/image/1uyjnbc550/
P2 http://postimage.org/image/1uyjoyvhms/
P3 http://postimage.org/image/1uyjvl0vlw/
P4 http://postimage.org/image/1uyk2769l0/
P1 http://postimage.org/image/1uyjnbc550/
P2 http://postimage.org/image/1uyjoyvhms/
P3 http://postimage.org/image/1uyjvl0vlw/
P4 http://postimage.org/image/1uyk2769l0/
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Another common piece of misinformation is that C&Rs need to keep their bound book for 20 years like 01FFLs.
Oh wow thanks! I just read some info on the atf.gov website that supports what you wrote rifleman. Maybe i should get one. I simply want to order a few surplus guns like a mauser, mosin, k31, tt33 and such. Then if I get a junker by accident I want to be able to sell it and find something better. That's all. I have no intention of even making a profit. I just want to be able to sell a junker for what I paid for it.
deadin
Member
Now you are getting into another "gray" area.
It could be construed that you are manufacturing without a license which is perfectly OK as long as it is for you. If you are doing it for someone else, it's a no-no.
Also, once you alter a mil-surp from it's original configuration, it no longer qualifies as a C&R and should be logged out of your book.
What I said was right according to the ATF agent I talked to personally on the phone. He said he viewed any selling of C&R's, other than for the purpose of enhancing the collection (liquidating your collection not covered here) as doing business. Selling a gun doesn't mean you have to buy another gun to "make up for it", you can put that towards ammo, or bayonets or a myriad of other investments. Sure what you bold sounds cut and dry if you state that is the way you interpret it, but we all know how differently each form of LEO, or ATF agent, or FBI agent, or Supreme Court judge etc etc interpret differently what to us seems so clear.
I'll continue to treat the rules and regs as I read them and have been personally told. I haven't sold a single C&R after I've bought it anyhow. I didn't get the license to buy as many as I can and dump the ones I end up not liking, I take the personal task of trying out something before I buy it before hand anyhow.
I'll continue to treat the rules and regs as I read them and have been personally told. I haven't sold a single C&R after I've bought it anyhow. I didn't get the license to buy as many as I can and dump the ones I end up not liking, I take the personal task of trying out something before I buy it before hand anyhow.
- Status
