Calibers and bullet type for ccw.

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Mrcymstr

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Here's a good healthy discussion that'd be interesting to get opinions on. I'm assuming most, if not all, of us agree that in a standard sidearm in standard service calibers (9mm, .45 ACP, etc)the best option tends to be premium grade JHPs. However, ate there any calibers or bbl lengths one might suggest a different bullet type? For instance would a 3 in. Bbl .380 be better serviced by fmjs due to low muzzle velocity and bullet weight?
 
However, ate there any calibers or bbl lengths one might suggest a different bullet type? For instance would a 3 in. Bbl .380 be better serviced by fmjs due to low muzzle velocity and bullet weight?

In .380 I still like Buffalo Bore JHP rounds, not FMJ, but some do prefer FMJ. Anything less than a .380, then yes, I would use solids.
 
Most quality hollowpoints are designed to meet FBI criteria -- 12" penetration plus expansion. That being the case, why not go with the best hollowpoint? Would you be at any disadvantage if the bullet expanded as it's designed to do?

And if it doesn't expand, it will simply act like an FMJ.
 
There is a school of thought that there is a lower calibre limit where penetration is more important than expansion.

I believe that this is generally accepted to be true of the .25ACP and the .22lr out of small pocket pistols with 2" barrels. The .32 calibre is more of a gray area, with there being some pretty nice hollow point offerings for the .327 Magnum and .32ACP out of short barreled platforms
 
Most quality hollowpoints are designed to meet FBI criteria -- 12" penetration plus expansion. That being the case, why not go with the best hollowpoint? Would you be at any disadvantage if the bullet expanded as it's designed to do?

For higher calibers, yes that is true. However when you get into smaller calibers (as the OP is asking for), many do not have the energy for both expansion and penetration. I would rather have a .25" hole that makes it to the back of the vital organs than a .25 ACP slug that expands to .3" that does not even make it to the vital organs.
 
Find me a .25 ACP round that expands to .3".

And find me a man who thinks the .25 ACP is adequate for self defense (and I will show you a person of diministed common sense.)
 
This is just a family story, so take it for what it is worth...but it does involve a .25ACP pistol and the use of it for a one shot stop.

My uncle, on my mother's side, served in the Nationalist Chinese Army...he was a VMI grad... during WW II. He was a General in a division that provided interpreters for the OSS work worked behind the Japanese lines. My father was his aide and held the rank of Col (he told me the story).

While my uncle carried a P-08 as a dress pistol, his most common carry piece was a Baby Browning in .25ACP. During a staff meeting, a member of his staff disagreed with a point he had made. My uncle told him to back down, he refused, my uncle said he should back down or he (my uncle) would kill him. When he refused again, my uncle drew his Browning from his pocket and dropped him with one shot...he was dead when others rushed to his side.

A couple less glamorous stories, to which I responded.

1. Estranged husband went to wife's house to get some clothing. BF from prior night was having breakfast. Husband went into bedroom and came out with a Beretta .25ACP. BF ran out door into backyard, husband pursued. BF turned to face husband, husband fired one shot, hitting BF in chest. BF dropped and died.

2. Gangbanger (A) confronts another on the street with a Raven .25. The victim laughs at him (A) as the gun fails to fire, cross the street and walk away. GB (A) chambers another round, braces against a car, shoots and hits from 20+ yards...striking the victim at the base of the skull. Victim falls and never gets up.

While I'm not saying the last two were MENSA candidates, the examples show that the .25ACP is nothing to be scoffed at.

On the other hand, my uncle was know as an outstanding shot though his life and always used enough gun when hunting...so one would think he was a knowledgeable shooter...and I don't think they gave him a free ride at VMI in the 30's
 
I didn't intend this to turn into a caliber war. Choosing a self defense caliber is as personal as choosing boxers or briefs so if we may just discuss the question at hand.

And lets not forget revolver calibers if anyone has anything to say on those.
 
I should have added that all the rounds used in the above .25ACP pistols were FMJ...at least the rounds left in the magazine were FMJ.

I'm becoming more impressed with the .327 Magnum. It give you and extra round in small snubbies and it's extra velocity with lighter slugs seems to expand well in the short barrels
 
I don't like most service calibers because they have been setup to fulfill a false standard. If you read Urey Patrick, FBI firearms expert and authored internal papers on recommending the 10MM for the FBI, his recommendation is the bare minimum is 12", with 18" of penetration ideal, or there abouts.
He makes the point over and over in his recommendations that under-penetration is what will get you killed.

I do see the merits of ammunition that penetrates only a foot, under ideal conditions. Crowded scenarios, cities, trailer parks, etc.

That said, I prefer not to sacrifice the penetration for expansion. Along with this sacrifice of penetration you have a bullet that dumps a huge percentage of its energy in the initial hit of the target. What if that initial penetration is an arm that is obstructing vital organs, because the person is shooting at me? Tests indicate that skin is difficult to penetrate on exit, and
requires the same amount of energy as is required to penetrate 4-6" of gelatin. In the arm shot scenario, in line with a vital organ, you now have seriously added to the penetration requirement. The bullet must enter the forearm, penetrate through it, how far determined by the angle of the shot, but generally it's going to be going from hand, down through the forearm, and then must expend 4-6" of gelatin energy to exit the arm. It is not unforeseeable that the bullet with 12-14" of penetration has used it's kenetic energy to penetrate, and exit the forearm. Upon hitting the chest
the bullet is already expanded, and has lost 90 percent of it's energy in the forearm, making deep penetration unlikely, and failure to penetrate the chest, and get to any vitals highly likely. Hopefully it takes that arm out of the fight, but it may not take the bad guy out of it. Seems to me a lot of arms got hit in the Platt shooting, and, the bad guys continued shooting, and killing.

I don't find these discussions as a general rule valuable, because factors we can't discuss should really be weighed heavily in your decision on what to carry. Location, situation, law, etc.

That said, as a general rule, I would go with Mr. Patrick's FBI recommendation and pick ammunition that penetrates ideally 18" in gelatin.

I might also suggest that to accomplish the goal, using a flat point, as near as possible, combined with a weight that limits penetration to the 18" range
requires a bit of research.

Almost all the gelatin work is on hollow points that generally never go deeper then 14". FMJ, the standard bullet weights, tend to penetrate in excess of the 18" desired range. A lighter bullet, with a more LFN style nose needs to be researched, and combined with proper velocity to achieve this goal.
I can't think of one FMJ/TC type bullet that is tailored to penetrate to 18".

The benefits of applying this approach to service calibers are
far cheaper ammunition, more practice, accurate, little sacrifice in wound channel, since the bullet velocity will be higher due to the lighter weight of the FMJ/TC, 100% expansion consistency.

I've settled on 260 grains at 800 fps, with a LFN style bullet. That load is tailored to my area, not yours. I use a .45 Colt.
My second shot speed and accuracy are considerably above average with this setup.;)

YMMV.
 
9mm is small as I go. And, heavy for caliber is my choice regardless of barrel length. HP expansion is a bonus IMO.
 
I can't carry day to day due to work situations/requirements. At other times, my #1 carry is a pocket holstered Charter Arms .44 Bulldog w/ 2.5" bbl and a DAO configuration (no hammer snag) in a pocket holster and 2 reloads carried on Lee-Enfield stripper clips (slower but less bulge than speed loaders) w/ 180 grain JHPs. I like the Charter because it prints about the same as an SP-101 or equivalent, delevers similar energy but makes a bigger hole with less over penetration risk....

They have a "lifetime guarantee" and, despite the FIRST one I had being heavily fired and beat about (and made long enough ago that it could vote for itself), they tried twiceI] to fix a geriatric gun from a company that, technically, wasn't "them" . So I thought they were good enough to earrant a buy of a truly new one.

I did have to tweak a little (especially work the cylinder extractor star) but it seems to be (with minimial attention frm me) something that will spend a lot lof time very close at hand
 
I think we might be drifting a bit far from the OP.

He isn't asking for caliber or gun recommendations, he is asking if there is a time when you'd recommend a FMJ bullet as opposed to a hollowpoint...taking caliber or barrel length into consideration
 
Find me a .25 ACP round that expands to .3".

And find me a man who thinks the .25 ACP is adequate for self defense (and I will show you a person of diministed common sense.)

First off, I was just using it as an example.

Secondly, it is not in any way your choice what other people carry in terms of caliber, and many find that a .25 ACP is adequate for their needs. If you notice, I never promoted the use of a .25 ACP, I just answered the OP; you turned this into a caliber war...

Sent from my HTC One X
 
Calibers and bullet type for ccw.
Here's a good healthy discussion that'd be interesting to get opinions on. I'm assuming most, if not all, of us agree that in a standard sidearm in standard service calibers (9mm, .45 ACP, etc)the best option tends to be premium grade JHPs. However, ate there any calibers or bbl lengths one might suggest a different bullet type? For instance would a 3 in. Bbl .380 be better serviced by fmjs due to low muzzle velocity and bullet weight?

The problem is your question is really too complicated to answer in a general way, and given a specific set of parameters, then has to be done by actual testing.

There are too many variables to come up with any sort of valuable information for you.

I would recommend Truncated cones,LFN's, or wadcutters in many calibers. FMJ, generally ball ammo, I would not recommend at all, unless the firearm failed to feed anything else(Mac 10 comes to mind).

Having reloaded a LOT, for a lot of different people, with a number of different types of guns I would say that each situation is specific to that gun, load, bullet, and shooter.

Try to narrow it down a bit.
 
..a person of diministed common sense.

Uh, it's actually supposed to be "diminished common sense."

I didn't intend this to turn into a caliber war.

Remarkably, this thread achieved four responses before someone decided to turn it into a caliber war. That's actually pretty good for a thread involving small-calibers.
Now, my opinion is that I do indeed prefer HP ammo for defensive work any time I am carrying a firearm loaded with ammo that has a "suitable" HP load available. By "suitable", I mean a round that has the potential to penetrate several inches, and be stopped by its own expansion prior to over-penetrating. To me, the expansion feature is to limit penetration, not to increase wound-channel cavitation. Think of it as a "brake" for the projectile.
My smallest-caliber carry piece is in .32ACP, and has a 2.7-inch barrel. It is currently loaded with a FMJ round because I lack confidence in the penetration ability of the most-common HP loads available around here. However, I have read some encouraging data on the Fiocchi Extrema 60-grain JHP load available, and may someday evaluate it myself for consideration as a carry load. As has been mentioned, the .32ACP round may well be in that "gray area" in which a lot of people cannot decide which bullet configuration is preferable. Most agree that smaller-caliber rounds fired from short (carry-piece length) barrels likely lack enough energy to drive an expanding bullet deep enough for effective impact, so they generally stick with FMJ if they carry such weapons, and I agree.
Regarding the .22LR round, though: I would trust the CCI MiniMag HP round to both penetrate to an effective depth in soft tissue and expand to "brake" its further advance when fired from a rifle (at typical self-defense ranges.)
 
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I carry at times a full magazine of HST 147 grain HP's, and another magazine with IIRC, Federal 147 grain Truncated cone type bullets for my Kahr PM9.

For .357 scandium I often prefer .38 Special TC 125 grain bullets at 950 fps.
They are more accurate/shootable then the .357 rounds.
Of those, I settle on Fioochi 147 grain JHP at 1141 fps out of my snub, simply because that's as much power as I can shoot accurately out of the gun.
I also use 125 grain Corbon HP's,@1205, and buffalobore .38 Plus P LHP's at 1040, 158 grains. All are at the limit of recoil, due to the lightweight gun causing high recoil speed.

With heavy caliber snubbies I like 350 grain bullets or heavier, with LFN, wadcutter, or HP designs. The great thing about big caliber snubs with heavy bullets is the weight of the bullet allows enough pressure to build to get high velocity out of a short barrel.
Generally if you are using a 350 grain bullet, you can make that bullet a HP and it's going to penetrate enough. Likewise if it's gas checked, and soft lead it doesn't have to be HP to expand.
 
Beretta 950:
Use CCI HP's. They don't expand out of a rifle, much less a 2" something barrel.
They do penetrate about 6-8" in rats, kill, and no expansion. Very straight path.
As good as a bunch of sharp sticks.
 
As an unscientific summary, when I last looked at .32acp loads, many JHP did not even expand reliabily. And when they did expand well, it was often at the sake of penetration.

The Buffalo Bore .32 ACP +P Hardcast FN ballistically seems like the clear winner. The Fiocchi Extreme is a very close second. However, they simply are too painful and hard to control in my little Beretta.

Sellier & Bellot and Fiocchi FMJ seem to offer the best 'sweet spot' for me. They seem to offer higher performance over the US brands across the boards. Maybe the Europeans like 'hotter' .32acps.

For example this is what I usually use:

http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/pistol-and-revolver-detail.php?ammunition=9&product=63
 
The Buffalo Bore .32 ACP +P Hardcast FN ballistically seems like the clear winner. The Fiocchi Extreme is a very close second. However, they simply are too painful and hard to control in my little Beretta.

You'll find .32 ACP FMJ flat point available in Winchester, Federal American Eagle and CCI-Speer Lawman loads.

There's NO advantage to using a "hot" non-expanding load. The increased velocity doesn't increase wound trauma - it simply increases recoil.

I recommend non-expanding, flat nose bullets for .380 ACP, .32 ACP, .25 ACP and .22 LR (specifically CCI's SGB for .22 LR). There is not enough bullet mass in each of these cartridges to reliably achieve adequate penetration (minimum penetration depth 12") if the bullet expands.
 
What loads give you 18" of penetration in gelatin using the service calibers, 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP?
 
You'll find .32 ACP FMJ flat point available in Winchester, Federal American Eagle and CCI-Speer Lawman loads.

There's NO advantage to using a "hot" non-expanding load. The increased velocity doesn't increase wound trauma - it simply increases recoil.

.

I have to disagree.
You assume that penetration for any FMJ is 'adequate'. At least in the .32acp that I was discussing, that is not true. With a smaller hole, being able to reach the vital internals is even more important. Ideally, you would have full penetration and bleed out from the front and back. But, it would have to be a very skinny/weak person to achieve that.

Based upon a wide range of data, the S&B and Fiocchi achieve much greater penetration in FMJ than the other brands. The one I linked too, is not a P+ or 'hot' load. The BB is.

I have never taken a good look at the ballistics [for self defense] on the other calibers.
 
I'd like to find ANY information on lighter for caliber, non-expanding TC cone type bullets for .45 ACP/Super/Colt. Also 9mm as well, out of shorter barrels.

Something showing a combination that penetrates around 18".
?:confused: Anyone have tests for that?

Also current factory loads that penetrate 18 inches with hollow points.?
 
Many people suggest "Dutch loading" .380, .32 and anything lesser. I have yet to see someone advocate this type of loading with a 9mm or anything more powerful.

If that doesn't tell you something, perhaps you and I read things differently.

My opinion (worth exactly what you paid for it) is that if you have that little faith in the round you are carrying that you must play "eenie, meanie, miney mo" with your SD rounds, then you really have no faith in either of the two choices.

In that case, the only logical solution I can come up with is to choose a larger, more powerful caliber, where you will no longer have that feeling of doubt.
 
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