Calibers and bullet type for ccw.

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All of my defensive handguns are stoked with hollow point ammunition. The lightest chamberings are .32 H&R Magnum (using handloaded 90 gr. Sierra JHC's) and .380 ACP (using handloaded 102 gr. Golden Sabres).

If I were going to carry a .32 ACP or some other diminutive cartridge, I'd probably opt for FMJ ammunition. But with the P3AT and it's spin-offs being available today, I see absolutely no reason to carry anything less than .380.
 
I have to disagree.
You assume that penetration for any FMJ is 'adequate'. At least in the .32acp that I was discussing, that is not true. With a smaller hole, being able to reach the vital internals is even more important. Ideally, you would have full penetration and bleed out from the front and back. But, it would have to be a very skinny/weak person to achieve that.
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The primary vitals we're trying to reach and damage, to produce reliable rapid incapacitation, are the heart and the great vessels of the torso. These are major blood distribution organs. A bullet hole in any of these structures produces INTERNAL bleeding, in which blood leaks into the abdominal and/or thoracic cavity. Two holes on the exterior of the body (entrance and exit) aren't going to matter. Blood may flow, ooze or drip out of entrance and exit wounds but this is blood that has already leaked from the circulatory system.
 
What if the bad guy has a gun aimed at you, and you shoot, hitting his arms which are guarding his vital organs?
 
What if the bad guy has a gun aimed at you, and you shoot, hitting his arms which are guarding his vital organs?
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That's not at all uncommon -- wounds to the hands and arms are quite frequent in actual gunfights, for just that reason -- the hands and arms are held forward, holding a gun and likely to take an incoming bullet (as well as serving as an instinctive aiming point.)
 
This was probably taken into account by Urey Patrick when he said ideal penetration in gelatin is 18". Some how 12"-14", probably due to physics and easy to manufacture, has become the norm.
 
This was probably taken into account by Urey Patrick when he said ideal penetration in gelatin is 18". Some how 12"-14", probably due to physics and easy to manufacture, has become the norm.
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Some say it was lawyers, afraid of suits against the city due to injuries to bystanders resulting from over-penetration.

On the other hand, the NYPD certainly seems to have little concern for bystanders.:uhoh:
 
MachIVshooter said:
All of my defensive handguns are stoked with hollow point ammunition. The lightest chamberings are .32 H&R Magnum (using handloaded 90 gr. Sierra JHC's) and .380 ACP (using handloaded 102 gr. Golden Sabres).

If I were going to carry a .32 ACP or some other diminutive cartridge, I'd probably opt for FMJ ammunition. But with the P3AT and it's spin-offs being available today, I see absolutely no reason to carry anything less than .380.
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How fast are you driving those 32 caliber SIERRA jhp's? Because as per my testing at less than 1000 fps they are FMJ in all but name. This is why my 2" 32 is loaded with 98g hard cast wadcutters

Bullets either make the 12" in gel they "should" or they don't. I'm of the school that penatration is required and expansion is a bonus. Almost without exception as bullets drop below 1000fps and 100 grains they begin to fall short of the 12" minimum.

Golden Loki has a plethora of outstanding 32/380 acp gel data and the overriding theme is JHP"s call very short in the penatration dpt if they expand

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/tests.htm


Shawn Dodson said:
You'll find .32 ACP FMJ flat point available in Winchester, Federal American Eagle and CCI-Speer Lawman loads.

There's NO advantage to using a "hot" non-expanding load. The increased velocity doesn't increase wound trauma - it simply increases recoil.

I recommend non-expanding, flat nose bullets for .380 ACP, .32 ACP, .25 ACP and .22 LR (specifically CCI's SGB for .22 LR). There is not enough bullet mass in each of these cartridges to reliably achieve adequate penetration (minimum penetration depth 12") if the bullet expands.
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I agree. Exotic $40 a box overloads are not needed. If you'll look at the results in the link above the BB hardcast load on average penatrated only an inch more.

Granted the FP profile on the cast bullet should enhance wounding somewhat
 
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I don't buy the lawyer angle. I might give credence to the desire to limit
spray and pray damage by LEO. A fragmenting bullet is less likely to go through barriers then a bullet that penetrates well.

I think it's economics, physics, and salesmanship.

The problem with soft lead bullets existed even with 260 grains at 950 fps, back 100 years ago, or more. They deform, deflect, and fail to get to their intended target. A HP is nothing more, usually, then a jacket with some cuts, a hollow nose, and soft lead inside, that now is marketed at rates equal to gold.

Buffalo hunters got them to work by using REALLY heavy bullets. Not an option for CCW.

What sells HP's at this stage is how much did the bullet expand?
Little thought goes to how deep did the bullet penetrate. We all see way too
many tests where they put the expanded, recovered bullets next to each other, and trumpet which one works the best.

Service calibers just can't move heavy enough hollow points to really get
18" of penetration. It takes either a redesigned, thicker, jacket, or a harder
core, which isn't as easy as just using pure lead.

The 10MM actually did give you a chance of getting adequate penetration, but, due to recoil, scoring, and politics, it didn't make it. Not to mention not many firearms options at the time.

Sadly, since it's not sexy, or flashy, or sellable, the light weight, truncated cone type/LFN type bullets just aren't popular, outside hunting circles, where people swear by them.

Gelatin really doesn't do justice to the wound cavity created by LFN type bullets once they get into the 1100 fps plus range.

Also flat points, TC's, LFN's are more difficult to get to feed, and far more difficult to sell for 1.50 a round then the new magic hollow point.
 
I have had a CZ70 in .32 ACP in the past and currently have a Mauser HSc in .32 ACP as my EDC. Loaded with Buffalo Bore .32 ACP +P, I'm satisfied with them. I intend to try the BB leadfree hollow points at some point as well as they may have superior performance.
 
How fast are you driving those 32 caliber SIERRA jhp's? Because as per my testing at less than 1000 fps they are FMJ in all but name.
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I'm using an SP-101, so I'm pushing them to near-.327 mag levels; Avg. 1,335 FPS from the 3-1/16" barrel. Magnum primers and a healthy dose of W231. Yes, they are considerably over the max pressure for .32 H&R, but by calculation, under the 45K PSI the .327 runs. Obviously, these loads are not suitable for a gun that can't handle .327. My SP-101 is going to get reamed at some point, just haven't got around to it yet. But I also don't carry this gun anymore, on account of my CA Bulldog .44 is similar in size, lighter weight, and packs considerably more punch with my handloads.

My .380 102 gr. Golden Sabre loads clock 1,070 FPS from my CZ83 and 980 FPS from my P3AT.
 
Personally, I would only use modern JHP in my 9mm or larger defensive handguns (or alternatly LSWCHP in revolvers).

If I was to use a .32 or smaller handgun for SD, I would definetly use solids of some kind.

For the .380 I'm still somewhat on the fence. I like the idea of using a high velocity JHP, but I'm not totally convinced that I would not be better off with some sort of solid.
 
To the OP, I recall this type of question popping up about a year after the LCP hit the market, with people claiming that a .380 JHP would not penetrate against a heavy jacket or clothing. For me, any caliber that requires a FMJ to get the basic job done, isn't a caliber I would carry.

LD
 
I think .380acp is a gray area. Arguments can be made both ways.

< .380 always use FMJ's

> .380 always use HP's

A .38 special out of a snub nose could also be argued is a gray area.

I carry Speer Gold Dots in both .380acp and .38 special.
 
Fastest45, as I mentioned in the other thread, the FBI determined that 12" minimum is required to reach vitals at odd angles and through the arm.
 
No love for the 7.62x25? One could possibly carry 2 mags 1 with hollow points in your cz52 or your tokarev and one full of fmj in your pocket. It certainly has penetration down perfect for the body armour wearing booglies if your ever so unlucky to run into them. They have some wolf gold hollow points on their website says its 1591fps. This fellow is using bulgarian surplus and it flies through the kevlar and makes it almost to the end of the block before stopping. Certainly not scientific testing but for the life of me I can't seem to find any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTg-TgEpUm0
 
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