Calibrate my expectations please!

[J-Bar]

On January 20 I posted a thread asking for recommendations on a powder for my .357 Magnums. Of the powders I have on hand, Unique was the favorite of responders by far. So I tried Unique loads in my 4" and 6" S&W Highway Patrolman revolvers today, and was not terribly excited by the accuracy. Are my expectations too high? I tested Unique powder charges from 5.5 grains to 6.0 grains under a 158 grain lead bullet. Both guns gave the smallest group with the 5.5 grain load, photos below. For comparison there is also a photo of a group shot with a S&W model 17 .22 LR. All targets were indoors, 30 feet, resting my wrist on a rest.

So is it unrealistic to expect a .357 to group like a .22 LR? What size groups would you accept as OK? Should I continue to play with Unique or shift experimentation to one of the others I have on hand? As always, I appreciate your opinions.

4 inch barrel:



6" barrel:



.22 LR Model 17:

 

[Walkalong]

21 feet, light load, Avg 679 FPS, 148 Gr HBWC


21 feet, Light load, 125 Gr Berrys and 125 Gr Powerbond


21 feet, Stout load, 125 Gr

 

[patsdad]

21 feet, light load, Avg 679 FPS, 148 Gr HBWC
View attachment 973136

21 feet, Light load, 125 Gr Berrys and 125 Gr Powerbond
View attachment 973137

21 feet, Stout load, 125 Gr
View attachment 973138

holy cow that is great shooting sir !

 

[AJC1]

Well if 5.5 is best maybe work down a a tenth or two and see if they tighten up more. I would never do it but I have seen people work 38s below 2.0 grains. There is safe opportunity to go lower.

 

[J-Bar]

I guess the second question is, can I ever hope to shoot as well as Walkalong?!



Thank you for setting an admirable standard.

 

[Howland937]

I guess the second question is, can I ever hope to shoot as well as Walkalong?!



Thank you for setting an admirable standard.

That's just pure magic, so not likely.
10 yard groups, first loads... I'd say there's reason to believe you have something to work with. Do you have any other bullet options?

 

[entropy]

My Trooper do about as good at 10 yards as Walkalong's targets with 148 gr. Hornady HBWC, as could my Pythons. Wish I still had them.

 

[J-Bar]

That's just pure magic, so not likely.
10 yard groups, first loads... I'd say there's reason to believe you have something to work with. Do you have any other bullet options?

I cast my own for cowboy action shooting. I have the Lee 125 grain flat nose in addition to these 158s.

If you were pursuing this would you switch powders or bullets? I will probably do both, just curious about your preference. Thanks.

 

[Howland937]

If you were pursuing this would you switch powders or bullets? I will probably do both, just curious about your preference. Thanks

My preferences kinda depend on what my goals are for whatever I'm shooting. For practicing with my carry gun, I just want reliable ammo that duplicates my carry ammo in feel and accuracy.
For everything else, I play around with whatever suitable components I have until I find a load that convinces me that it, in my gun, is better than I am.

 

[jmorris]

So is it unrealistic to expect a .357 to group like a .22 LR? What size groups would you accept as OK? Should I continue to play with Unique or shift experimentation to one of the others I have on hand?

It’s realistic to not expect miracles. Historically how have the two shot with say good to premium factory ammunition? If the .22 always shoots smaller, I wouldn’t expect loading some cast 158’s to moderate velocity’s to shoot tiny groups.

For pistols, seems like bullets have a greater effect on groups than powders. Might give a good JHP a try.

I don’t know the distance your shooting them but looking at the targets, you might try putting the 357 magnum targets upside down.

All you can really do is try different things and see what happens, the more samples you gather and try the more information you have to base expectations upon. It’s time consuming but at least the shooting is the fun part.

I built a machine rest for pistols last year and it does make short work out of seeing what works and what doesn’t but using it feels more like work than fun, I guess because it takes me out of it.

 

[reddog81]

The groups don't surprise me. .357 loads are harder to shoot than .22's. Try 4.0 grains unique with 158 grain bullet.

What does a group of .357 factory loads look like?

 

[J-Bar]

The groups don't surprise me. .357 loads are harder to shoot than .22's. Try 4.0 grains unique with 158 grain bullet.

What does a group of .357 factory loads look like?

The guns are recent purchases, even though they are pre-'82. Just getting acquainted with them.

Factory .357s? Seriously? I will keep looking.

But I like your suggestion of 4 grains. Gonna try it. Thanks.

 

[FROGO207]

Have you looked at the revolvers seriously yet? Measuring the cylinder throats and slugging the bore? If you are pushing an undersized lead bullet down the bigger bore it will never be accurate.

 

[wcwhitey]

Go 1/10th down, load 1/10 up, There is always a sweet spot. I think going down too low with Unique in .357 cases is going to give you erratic ignition. If you want soft target loads stay with .38 brass, then 4.5/6 grains is perfect. Personally I would guess your accuracy is going to come by slightly increasing your load. Bottom line, experiment and find the sweet spot. It’s there. Good luck.

 

[horsey300]

The guns are recent purchases, even though they are pre-'82. Just getting acquainted with them.

Factory .357s? Seriously? I will keep looking.

But I like your suggestion of 4 grains. Gonna try it. Thanks.

My favorite steamy .38 158 lswhp load uses bullseye and produces slight vertical stringing from a light stallion frame with 3" barrel but all holes touching standing freehand at 30ish feet, next time we go out, I'm gonna push to the 50 yd just to see how she does.

 

[horsey300]

The groups don't surprise me. .357 loads are harder to shoot than .22's. Try 4.0 grains unique with 158 grain bullet.

What does a group of .357 factory loads look like?

The guns are recent purchases, even though they are pre-'82. Just getting acquainted with them.

Factory .357s? Seriously? I will keep looking.

But I like your suggestion of 4 grains. Gonna try it. Thanks.

Go 1/10th down, load 1/10 up, There is always a sweet spot. I think going down too low with Unique in .357 cases is going to give you erratic ignition. If you want soft target loads stay with .38 brass, then 4.5/6 grains is perfect. Personally I would guess your accuracy is going to come by slightly increasing your load. Bottom line, experiment and find the sweet spot. It’s there. Good luck.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=5&weight=158&shellid=9&bulletid=12

 

[reddog81]

Go 1/10th down, load 1/10 up, There is always a sweet spot. I think going down too low with Unique in .357 cases is going to give you erratic ignition. If you want soft target loads stay with .38 brass, then 4.5/6 grains is perfect. Personally I would guess your accuracy is going to come by slightly increasing your load. Bottom line, experiment and find the sweet spot. It’s there. Good luck.

4.0 will work fine... If he wants to shoot small groups, than target loads will work better than max loads. Especially if he's new to shooting revolvers.

 

[WrongHanded]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/357-mag-158gr-lswc-unique-loads.574058/

I'd take a look at that thread.

I just loaded some SNS 158gr coated LSWC a couple weekends ago at around 6.4gr-6.5gr of unique. I shot them through an SP101 and GP100. No accuracy test, but they felt good and seemed accurate enough in the GP @ 25 yards offhand. I do recall 6.0gr just wasn't working for me.

 

[J-Bar]

4.0 will work fine... If he wants to shoot small groups, than target loads will work better than max loads. Especially if he's new to shooting revolvers.

I shot my first revolver in 1962. Whaddya think?

 

[NMexJim]

On January 20 I posted a thread asking for recommendations on a powder for my .357 Magnums. Of the powders I have on hand, Unique was the favorite of responders by far. So I tried Unique loads in my 4" and 6" S&W Highway Patrolman revolvers today, and was not terribly excited by the accuracy. Are my expectations too high? I tested Unique powder charges from 5.5 grains to 6.0 grains under a 158 grain lead bullet. Both guns gave the smallest group with the 5.5 grain load, photos below. For comparison there is also a photo of a group shot with a S&W model 17 .22 LR. All targets were indoors, 30 feet, resting my wrist on a rest.

So is it unrealistic to expect a .357 to group like a .22 LR? What size groups would you accept as OK? Should I continue to play with Unique or shift experimentation to one of the others I have on hand? As always, I appreciate your opinions.

4 inch barrel:

View attachment 973120

6" barrel:

View attachment 973122

.22 LR Model 17:

View attachment 973125

 

[reddog81]

I shot my first revolver in 1962. Whaddya think?

m

Based on post #12 I figured .357’s were something new. Either way, for most people target loads are much easier to shoot accurately vs full strength loads.

 

[entropy]

I like this one better!

 

[NMexJim]

View attachment 973195
I like this one better!

Oh me too, much better!

 

[lordpaxman]

So is it unrealistic to expect a .357 to group like a .22 LR?

Your results look like mine when I was working up loads for Universal. I got my tightest groups with lead and plated using Titegroup. I’d try Bullseye and TG. But then again, large groups these days can be attributed to Covid. Wear a mask and they’ll tighten up.. Good luck.

 

[Catpop]

It takes multiple groups with the identical recipe to establish the best group for that recipe.
It takes hundreds if not thousands of rounds in a particular revolver to become proficient with that revolver.
That said, when you are sure you have “rung” that recipe to its best consistent average group. Then record results in your load book, and go jump another rabbit. Any change in recipe is another rabbit
You may find you can never find a better recipe for those exact components. Or you may improve upon it.
Either way keep your results recorded for future use
The quest is in the hunt