Calif.'s ongoing bam-fuggles..

[Lonestar49]

I won't sell a gun to a person in Ca simply because I don't know which guns are allowed and which aren't.

...

Well, in "my case" you, as a seller, would not have to worry about that, as a trapped Calif-buyer, I would chk Calif.'s Gun Approval List", first, as I did, and could not get, a beautiful used Sig P229/40 ST.. not on list. And now I'm in, and seeing, one of the best ~ RED HEARING's ~ I have yet to see in my lifetime, and I'm right in the middle of those that feel, " Dammed if I do, Dammed if I don't ~ do business in and with, obvious, gun-enthusiast in and of Calif., you know, brothers in Arms.. in Calif. But not any more it appears.

Yet, speaking personally, I'm being cut out of loop, per say, for not supporting any of the elected POS's that take full advantage of the poor and the rich, and tax me to make up for what the rich can write off, and the poor can't pay, along with a court system that when an election takes place on some matters, even when the majority vote wins, we lose, because the minority, bitter loser's, simply get a free lawyer to throw enough crap at the wall to stick some, and some bleeding judge making a name for themselves in the history book, overrules the election results and ties it up for the next 10 yrs..

Maybe the great Earth Quake they predict, and Calif falling off the map and going under the sea is the right choice in truth.. A civil war, so to speak, same unfair start of it, but one with the right ending..

May it happen in 6yrs, as we hope to move out of this State in 5ys.



Ls

 

[billwiese]

I won't sell a gun to a person in Ca simply because I don't know which guns are allowed and which aren't.

You're actually protected - just as long as you stay outta NFA-like territory.

If the handgun is not on the approved Roster of handguns (tested, etc.) , that's the fault of the dealer/buyer. CA FFLs can legally import/acquire such guns, just can't transfer them to ordinary folks. The buyer'd then end up with such a gun at the dealer he can't get transferred to him, so it just sits on the dealer's shelf and has to be re-flogged on Gunbroker or AuctionArms. No criminal issue at all.

Ordinary rifles have no such control.

In the case of an 'assault weapon' (defined by name or generic features suite) being accidentally sent into CA, an individual out of stater would be protected from our own CA penal code, 12280PC, which contains the prefatory clause, "Whoever, within this state, <list of no-no AW conduct...>"

I'll note that the CA firearms market is bigger than that of quite a few other states combined and buyers generally buy higher-ticket items due to overall wealth of state. Some FFLs want that biz, others will avoid it.

What we saw before in the off-list AR saga back in late 2005/early 2006 was essentially the same "F U California". Now a ton of dealers are willing to ship in off-list receivers & legally configured non-AW rifles - it just took a few FFLs to not be intimidated, talk with folks knowledgable about CA laws, etc. to start the ruckus.

Again, the CFLC program has NO control over a non-FFL *INDIVIDUAL* shipping a firearm to a CA FFL.

And in a month or two we'll have a list of FFLs in every state/region that will work with us. And I think this will also break down the barrier that some CA FFLs have - some of 'em will only receive from another FFL.

BTW: Ronnie Barrett only refused to do biz with CA LEO entities. Individuals in CA and CA FFLs supporting those individuals are fully supported by Barrett Firearms.



Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

 

[Lonestar49]

RR, Update..

Lonestar49, I agree on the legislation is BS. But on the Sig 229 you missed out on, private individuals are exempt from this law. The seller if he isn't an ffl could have shipped the gun to your ffl. There would be no extra paperwork involved. Your ffl sends the seller a copy of his license and then the seller ships. It's totally legal. Now if they don't want to do that and require an ffl on both ends that's on them. Mark

RR, just had a nice long (explained, to comply with Calif FFL law) talk with my FFL dealer, and she said "any out of state gun, transfer, legally must be sent thru the mail by another FFL) the only way a private owner can legally send a gun thru the mail is IF they are sending a gun back to the Factory for some kind of repair, etc.

That there is No paperwork for the out of state FFL's to send in or have to do other than "ship a sellers gun to my/any Calif FFL, which she charges, and they may charge that much, 50.00 bucks to ship a gun.

Put simply: If I want to buy a Sig P229 n/r 40, my FFL first verifies it on the Calif Gun Approval List, then fills out the form (her company name, FFL ID type gun to be shipped, and sends the request to Calif DOJ, which may take 1 - 7 days for the DOJ to respond with the form "Ok'd/ Firearm Shipment Approval".. Then she simply Fax's a copy: of Firearm Shipment Approval showing their FFL ID, company name and addy for the out of State FFL to get, then with that paper in their hand/on file, legal, he/they simply ship the gun to (my FFL) for the seller.. That's it, no additional paperwork or forms for the out of State FFL's to have to mess (time-wise) with, or pay for.

It's all (done, one piece of paper) at our Calif. FFL's end.. only.


Ls

 

[mnrivrat]

RR, just had a nice long (explained, to comply with Calif FFL law) talk with my FFL dealer, and she said "any out of state gun, transfer, legally must be sent thru the mail by another FFL) the only way a private owner can legally send a gun thru the mail is IF they are sending a gun back to the Factory for some kind of repair, etc.

That there is No paperwork for the out of state FFL's to send in or have to do other than "ship a sellers gun to my/any Calif FFL, which she charges, and they may charge that much, 50.00 bucks to ship a gun.

Wrong as far as I know - first of all, a private owner can legaly send a gun to a CA FFL , just not through the USPS . They have to use private carrier like UPS or Fedex which charge much more, but a non-FFL can ship it that way.

Second, the out of State FFL has to notify the DOJ in CA of the pending shipment & seek aproval ,so there IS something more involved for them.

 

[billwiese]

Lonestar49,

Your FFL is full of BS. Get another one. And join www.calguns.net

There is no requirement that an FFL - CA or otherwise - receive a gun from another FFL. He's (1) either unknowning/illiterate or (2) somehow thinks coming from another FFL gives him some sort of 'protection' (it doesn't, and is irrelevant).

A private non-FFL gun owner can clearly send a gun to a CA FFL dealer, and does NOT have to go thru CFLC process. Period.

For US in general and CA specifically, any non-FFL (well, nonprohibited/ nonfelon) can send a gun to an FFL. Shipment of long guns can use US Mail, while handguns must use an alternate carrier (DHL, UPS, FedEx, etc.). [FFLs are exempt from this restriction and can actually use US Mail to ship handguns.]



Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

 

[natman]

Put simply: If I want to buy a Sig P229 n/r 40, my FFL first verifies it on the Calif Gun Approval List, then fills out the form (her company name, FFL ID type gun to be shipped, and sends the request to Calif DOJ, which may take 1 - 7 days for the DOJ to respond with the form "Ok'd/ Firearm Shipment Approval"

Unless there is some added wrinkle because this example is a pistol, it's faster than this.

You can get the shipment approval online instantly. You have to enroll first, which is about as hard as registering on this forum. Once you've enrolled it takes about a minute to confirm the California dealer number. Then you print out the approval and ship.

 

[Lonestar49]

OK, you be my (Pro Bono) free lawyer.. IF

Unless there is some added wrinkle because this example is a pistol, it's faster than this.

You can get the shipment approval online instantly. You have to enroll first, which is about as hard as registering on this forum. Once you've enrolled it takes about a minute to confirm the California dealer number. Then you print out the approval and ship.

This is exactly what she said, takes very little time (one day). I just said 1-7 days as a buffer zone example because not all FFL's are gonna tell the customer it's simple fast, nothing at all, because many are gonna want the customer to pay a fee. That's just the way many do business. Not mine, they're up front with me and I have to trust them as to the laws while not being a lawyer myself nor having one on retainer, seems the logical choice, least amount of money worries (none) as the right "choice" for me to conduct any type gun business.

So Bill, even if what you say, and the little I read over in your forum, it's all subject to whose litigating conclusions? As I don't want to get caught on the short end of anything that may be turned against me that I would have to spend big bucks getting representation IF I chose to just send a gun on my own or have a private person send their gun to another private parties (my) FFL and it fell back at my door.. meaning the_gun, while in my possession and had no proof of whom I bought it from, no ID of proof, etc.

I think I would rather trust what they told me today, FFL to FFL via a pre-approved CA. DOJ approved Firearms Shipment Approval saying it's legal and ok for the out of State FFL to send gun, and have it on the FFL books of who sent/sold it, along with type gun and ID of said gun, ID/proof of seller, for legal matters down the road IF any popped up..

They've been in business for 20 some years and do not strike me as illiterate or otherwise.

All I can say is I'm very close to owning all the guns I will require and will not have to step in this ongoing Calif., and firearms, in general, ongoing mess pot anymore..

Everyone says I'm right (you, me, them), they're wrong, but not all of us have free access or the big money to hire counsel IF what you say is right, legal, proven, or a precedent can be shown. It still is a possible can of worms that I would rather avoid with a little error on the side of caution than have to put up my house for legal council to prove I was right all along by not going thru an FFL.

You have your Calif/gun battles and I wish you well, and all those that care to exercise your legal challenges or otherwise..

For something that takes less than 1hr (in reality) cost "me" nothing for my FFL to do, and then receive a gun from another out of State FFL and it's documented correctly from both ends, in both FFL books, then I find all other challenges to that, simply a free choice for those that want to send a gun to another person's FFL, not going thru a local/State FFL of their own, thru UPS, Fed EX, and by law, as I understand it, not thru the USPS, a given free choice for others to make..


Ls

 

[billwiese]

they've been in business for 20 some years and do not strike me as illiterate or otherwise.

Maybe they're not drooling, but they're still provable idiots. Probably an old-line 'duck hunter' gunshop, ones that helped bring in the AW ban in CA "because we don't sell those damned black rifles".

There is no reason for their policy - even irrational litigation wouldn't cause issues here.

If you'd like to find another more intelligent FFL in your area, I'd be glad to help.

Again,

• FFLs, CA or otherwise, do not have to receive items from FFLs, and can accept firearms from regular parties. Many do it all the time without fear.
  
• CFLC takes around 5 min or so the first time. Afterwards it's ~1-2 min per
  transaction: log in select the destination FFL, enter some info, and voila! It's stupid, but not insurmountable.
  

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

 

[Lonestar49]

Thanks Bill

Maybe they're not drooling, but they're still provable idiots. Probably an old-line 'duck hunter' gunshop, ones that helped bring in the AW ban in CA "because we don't sell those damned black rifles".

There is no reason for their policy - even irrational litigation wouldn't cause issues here.

If you'd like to find another more intelligent FFL in your area, I'd be glad to help.

Again,
FFLs, CA or otherwise, do not have to receive items from FFLs, and can accept firearms from regular parties. Many do it all the time without fear.

...

Not quite drooling, nor Duck Hunters, quite the opposite really. Evan's is a Husband (Former USMC GW1 Veteran and his wife) and they sell high end tactical rifles and a good amount of Colt 1911's tuned-out to perfection to most to the Orange County LEO, and the public, as well as have 2 sides of an Indoor Range which "most" of Orange County LEA's and HWY Patrol do their training and shooting..

But, sure, if you could PM me a name or names of some local FFL's in my neck of the woods, that would appreciated..

It seems that not just the State of Calif has it's citizens a little confused with the law/s of private citizens shipping their guns thru either UPS or Fed Ex to another out of State, as sometime last year before our new law went into effect JUL 08, I wanted to send my gun to a bud in Texas, my Px4/40 and he said, no, you can't do that, send a complete gun to me, as I wanted him to test fire fire it as well.. So maybe our Country, in general, is a bit uneducated in these type matters..


Thanks,


Ls

 

[billwiese]

OMG, Evan's Gunsmithing.

What a tool. He may know gunsmithing, but otherwise he's clueless. (He also appears to charge a fortune to work on ARs, even those not configured as AWs, and which don't require his AW permit. He doesn't have a deep understanding of what is/isn't an AW in California and wants to be treated as a 'special person' due to his AW permit.

Evan's is the dude that got a private letter from a Ca DOJ agent "approving" his *listed* Evan's/GBSales AR rifles w/welded-up magwells as non-assault weapons - while he denigrated the legality of proper Calguns-driven "off-list" rifles.

Turns out Ca DOJ Firearms Bureau had to spend a half-day meeting of senior mgmt chain to clean up after what became known as the "Evan's Fiasco" on Calguns; they realized his conduct was not legal but they'd given (unsupervised) approval. Evan's did have 'em over the barrel (lucky for him) since he had detrimental reliance on a senior agent of the Atty General saying it was legal, but it wasn't. Ended getting cleaned up by Evans's getting a special AW mfgr permit rushed thru to handle a transition from AW to non-AW, so he could stamp something like "Evan's-Bushmaster" on the rifles in circulation - with goal of Evan's customers thus not owning banned-by-name AWs.

BTW: that Ca DOJ Firearms agent, Ignatius Chinn, resigned from CA DOJ in a cloud just a few months ago. We hear he was asked to leave for some kinda malfeasance, we're not sure what - and they were probably tired of the drama around him. He's 58 years old and is now undergoing field training as a beat cop in San Francisco PD. "Iggy" has accumulated a record of unprosecuted perjurious testimony - combined with demonstrable incompetence - in various gun cases NRA's lawyers have fought & won. His credibility is shot, so much so the NRA lawyers can use his deposed testimony showing both sides of an issue.


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

 

[99sparks]

I know a guy that works at an online gun auction, outside CA. A few people in CA won a few guns. Who ever the CA FFL was took the normal size magazine out and sent it back. He didn’t know what to do with them… so he put them in an envelope and sent them back to the CA winner! After all they were just normal magazines not guns!

 

[Lonestar49]

...

Wow Bill, you hold no punches and, you go right to civil press on anyone..

Just so you clearly understand my thinking, Evan is an honorable USMC Vet, and is dying (health wise) and I hope he can make it to at least 58yrs of age, so I can't support any of the _"idiot" parts about him, not a chance.. no matter

I'm not sure I'm impressed here, as a PM to me about Evans might have been more appropriate, or in my book, won a lot more style-points..

But, you are (and do) what you do and have the means of Legal Representation if you over state your case, it appears..

Thank goodness all I need from Evans is the Range use, no need of any rifles, 1911's, as my 2 shotguns serve me well, along with my small herd of brand listed makes below in my sig line.. Just one more used (late style/make) or NIB n/r P229/40 and I'm set.. and maybe, maybe, one S_A rifle w/scope.

Still waiting for the PM i.e. for a "Local FFL" dealer that meets both our expectations..

Thank you, though, for a very interesting read, as whatever, really, is the truth, I'm taking-note of a lot and will make any future FFL transactions on a much better playing-field, so to speak.


Ls

 

[K-Romulus]

Thanks for the Ignatius Chinn update. I remember seeing him on a news video somebody posted here. Chinn was hysterically complaining about a "loophole" in CA law that allowed AR15's to legally use a special mag catch that required a "tool" to release the magazine. That guy was a real piece of work.