California ammo law?

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9mmforMe

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I saw this on an online gunstore site...is this true? Wow...if so you Californians have a legislative battle ahead of you. This is absurd!

"Law AB962 is going into effect at the end of January 2011. This law will stop all ordering of handgun ammo from out of state, will require all handgun ammo sales to be face-to-face, and will require a thumbprint at each sale, which is kept in a state database."
 
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Yes it is true, they did a test for a few years in a couple of counties doing the fingerprint, ID requirement, home add, signature etc.. I have been looking for some ammo on line and many of the locations already will not send to us:confused:

See how it goes, ammo could go up, or maybe down if the various business's feel now they are on a level playing field, and outsiders can not play:uhoh:

They actually tried to set a limit of 50 rounds a month :what: That did not pass...:)

Regards
 
One thing comes to mind with CA is similar situation with cars, have to buy ones that fit into the states regs...Go out of state to buy, like in days of old better be able to get it registered:uhoh:

The extra cost of ammo is not going to be a big issue, not enough to travel half a day and hundreds of miles...At $3.50 a gallon for gas/diesel it is costly:(

Be interesting what happens with the various suits and the reasons each gives for grounds, behind them...

If they did not do it, the membership would want to know why not, sort of an expected suit to be honest...
 
"Law AB962 is going into effect at the end of January 2011. This law will stop all ordering of handgun ammo from out of state, will require all handgun ammo sales to be face-to-face, and will require a thumbprint at each sale, which is kept in a state database."
That is actually not true. It requires all transfers to be face to face, which means that your UPS guy can't just drop the package on the door step, you must sign for it and show ID. It's unfortunate that many vendors got scared of something they don't understand, and decided to stop selling to California. Just like the vendors that won't sell AR parts because they think it's illegal. Businesses should really try to have a good grasp of the laws regarding the things they sell.
 
It is clearly understood that this bill was intended to and does end mail order ammo sales to individuals. Vendors will not risk legal repercussions of California sales without maintaining the proper records and UPS is not willing to take thumbprints.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that we'll get an injunction before Thanksgiving from Federal Court that will prevent the implementation of this law and that ultimately it will be found unconstitutional and voided.


http://www.ab962.org/ReadAB962.aspx


12061. (a)

A vendor shall comply with all of the following conditions, requirements and prohibitions:

(1) A vendor shall not permit any employee who the vendor knows or reasonably should know is a person described in Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code to handle, sell, or deliver handgun ammunition in the course and scope of his or her employment.
(2) A vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of, offer for sale or otherwise offer to transfer ownership of, or display for sale or display for transfer of ownership of any handgun ammunition in a manner that allows that ammunition to be accessible to a purchaser or transferee without the assistance of the vendor or employee thereof.
(3) Commencing February 1, 2011, a vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any handgun ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information:
(A) The date of the sale or other transaction.
(B) The purchaser's or transferee's driver's license or other identification number and the state in which it was issued.
(C) The brand, type, and amount of ammunition sold or otherwise transferred.
(D) The purchaser's or transferee's signature.
(E) The name of the salesperson who processed the sale or other transaction.
(F) The right thumbprint of the purchaser or transferee on the above form.
(G) The purchaser's or transferee's full residential address and telephone number.
(H) The purchaser's or transferee's date of birth.

*************

12318. (a)

Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
 
Yes it is true. Anyone want to open an ammo depot in Reno/Vegas? I bet you would make a killing. This will also include reloading components for pistol cartridges. I am betting that a lot of Californian gun owners will be raiding the gunshows in Reno for ammo as to avoid being recorded by the DOJ. I guarantee I will not be buying ammo in CA anymore... I'll just stock up once or twice per year when I visit my family in UT.

you must sign for it and show ID.

... and a thumb print
 
It requires all transfers to be face to face, which means that your UPS guy can't just drop the package on the door step, you must sign for it and show ID. It's unfortunate that many vendors got scared of something they don't understand, and decided to stop selling to California.

I haven't read the law. Would UPS still need to get a fingerprint? If so, they don't currently offer that option under their shipping services, which would make it hard for out of state vendors to comply with the law.

ETA: Just read what Armed Liberal posted. Does vendor include all vendors or just in state vendors? If it includes all vendors that makes it hard for an ammo selling company in Florida to comply with all of the regulations.
 
If implimented, AB-962 "may" impact CA. instate sales too. A new Dick's sporting goods in N. San Diego County will not stock ammo. I was in a Walmart for some .40 this week and ask the clerk the lastest on Walmart's stance. He said all he has heard is it depends on the ongoing litigation. So I would assume, if it does become law and becomes to big of a hassle, some of the ole stand bys, like Walmart and the like may figure it just isn't worth the effort.

Respectfully-Kyle
 
KBintheSLC said:
Yes it does. That is the point of it. It is a backdoor ammo ban.

So, a California resident goes to Nevada and buys ammo from a Wal Mart store. Answers the question, are you over 21 with a yes, shows no ID, no signature, nothin'. How do you propose that California is going to reach into Nevada and enforce their law upon the Wal Mart store in Nevada?

Regardless of what the State of California and even some residents of California may think, California state laws only apply with the borders of California. They cannot impose their silly laws outside the state.
 
If someone buys ammo for, say, a 9mm pistol, and the records don't show a 9mm pistol registered to the buyer, might this be used to obtain a search warrant? I don't want to sound paranoid, but..
 
I find it extremely humorous that the bill begins with these words:

"THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:"

Yeah, right.
 
If someone buys ammo for, say, a 9mm pistol, and the records don't show a 9mm pistol registered to the buyer, might this be used to obtain a search warrant? I don't want to sound paranoid, but..

Nope. It's perfectly legal in California to own an unregistered handgun.
 
I find it extremely humorous that the bill begins with these words:

"THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:"

Yeah, right.

Given the fact that the People of California haven't been able to oust the offending politicians, I find it pretty apt.
 
The People of California means the politicians elected by the liberal majorities in the densely populated coastal areas. Where I live most people are very conservative politically. Unfortunately, we are outnumbered in statewide elections. Tyranny of the majority.

I planned ahead and stocked up on pistol ammo. And if the law withstands the legal challenges, I will never buy pistol ammunition in California again. The additional bureaucratic requirements (fingerprints, recordkeeping, training of employees who will be allowed to handle and sell ammunition, etc) will most assuredly cause a price increase, and many vendors like Walmart might decide it is not worth the hassle.
 
So, a California resident goes to Nevada and buys ammo from a Wal Mart store. Answers the question, are you over 21 with a yes, shows no ID, no signature, nothin'. How do you propose that California is going to reach into Nevada and enforce their law upon the Wal Mart store in Nevada?

Regardless of what the State of California and even some residents of California may think, California state laws only apply with the borders of California. They cannot impose their silly laws outside the state.


You are correct Californians will still be able to travel out of state to make unrecorded handgun ammo purchases. But there is a history of California reaching out to successfully persecute out of state vendors who were shipping illegal-in-CA auto exhaust parts to Californians.

If this law were to stand up to the court challenges I believe that most mail order venders will boycott CA entirely because of the vague definition of "Handgun Ammunition" in the law. This is actually one of the points of legal attack - it's unconstitutional to write vague laws that no one can understand.
 
I'm not sure how this passes Constitutional muster with regard to the Commerce Clause (I mean the real Commerce Clause, not the monster it has morphed into, although that makes it even easier to smack down CA here)
 
If someone buys ammo for, say, a 9mm pistol, and the records don't show a 9mm pistol registered to the buyer, might this be used to obtain a search warrant? I don't want to sound paranoid, but..



Perhaps, especially if you take into account the age of the individual, when all handguns began being registered, the date state law began requiring all handgun transfers go through an FFL, and what the minimum age to own a pistol was at that time.
People born before X date will not legally own an unregistered handgun, so any unregistered handgun they possess was obviously obtained in violation of the law at some point if they came of legal handgun owning age after the legal requirement of all transfers going through an FFL, and all private owners moving into the state having to register their handguns.
The latest of all of the above dates is the one requiring out of state residents who move into California to register their guns. That was in 1998.
This means the absolute youngest someone living in California could be while legally owning an unregistered handgun is someone who was of legal handgun owning age in 1998 (and they would have to be even older if they were only a resident of California before 1998.)
Anyone who came of age later than 1998 can be presumed to be in violation of California law and prosecuted just for owning an unregistered handgun.

All transfers have had to go through an FFL since 1991 in California, so if you were only a California resident prior to 1998 and not of legal age to own a handgun before 1991, then any unregistered handgun is clearly illegal.
Someone 18 in 1991 would be about 37 today. Anyone 18 in 1998 and previously over 18 while a resident of another state would be a minimum age of 30 today.

So by simple logical deduction anyone under 37 or 30 respectively who owns an unregistered handgun who is a California resident is obviously in violation of the law, and enough evidence exists to obtain a conviction.
Of course people are free to legally buy ammo for guns they do not own, including those they are borrowing. So just the purchase of ammo itself is not proof of ownership.

Nope. It's perfectly legal in California to own an unregistered handgun.

It is a crime to import an unregistered handgun without registering it within 60 days.
All handguns transferred through an FFL in California are automatically registered with the CADOJ in a database.
Almost all transfers in California require an FFL, and the one that does not requires mailing the firearm information to CADOJ.
The crime is typically a misdemeanor but can be a felony under certain circumstances (one of which is a repeat offense) PC12027(g)

So as I explained above anyone under 37 or 30 respectively (or who talks too much without a lawyer even if older) who becomes known to own an unregistered handgun can be prosecuted as all the evidence necessary to show it is illegal exists based on the dates of enacted legislation and birth date of the individual.


Most people are simply unaware that all handguns purchased or transferred in California through an FFL are automatically registered, and so never know their firearm is registered.
 
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That is actually not true. It requires all transfers to be face to face, which means that your UPS guy can't just drop the package on the door step, you must sign for it and show ID. It's unfortunate that many vendors got scared of something they don't understand, and decided to stop selling to California. Just like the vendors that won't sell AR parts because they think it's illegal. Businesses should really try to have a good grasp of the laws regarding the things they sell.

I don't think vendors are scared. I just think they are tired of dealing with California's stupid BS. This, unfortunately, is exactly what California wants. I still belive if they keep passing stupid laws like this then all shotters should leave the state in a mass exodus. Some will think this is just giving up, but it is not. Alot of people shoot in Ca. and if all those people leave think of the economic impact that state will face. It will not be pretty for Cally. Maybe then the latte' sippin lefties will wake up and realize all this restriction is just stupid and does not work. Trust me if two guys wanted to suit up, and rob a bank ending in another shoot out it will happen. I don't care if they took everones guns away.......It could still happen. Period. Its just unfortunate that such a beautiful state has to have some stupid, ugly laws.:(
 
The situation is many in CA own handguns, a huge amount of those people would never think of moving out of the state...I don't think it will impact many that just buy a couple hundred rounds a year to shoot and have that many at home...

It does seem to be overriding problem for many and some of us have bought quite a few boxes over the years to have in reserve, I was at a range a few weeks ago and the discussion was, who needs more than a few hundred rounds in reserve??? When at the range buy a box of 250 and shoot it up...Come back next time and do the same... They (range) love it ;)

Regards
 
Here's a thought. The ammo companies like Winchester, Remington, etc. should stop selling ammo to local LE agencies statewide in Ca.
 
I assume this law was also designed, in part, to avoid and prevent transactions where the state of California does not receive sales tax revenues which are many times avoidable when Internet purchases from out-of-state are made.

Several years ago the Supremes decided that vendors do not have the obligation to collect sales tax from buyers for transactions that are made in different states where the vendors do not have a presence (office).

I also assume the anti's just love this law. Sounds like the work of barbara boxer and nancy pelosi to me.
 
I will not be participating any longer, either as a resident of this state (condition actually) or not.

I'm moving, this bill had me looking to move. Tuesday's results solidified it for me. The people are nuts, the editorial in today's paper got it right.

"The people in California are smoking something, it's not weed either, they just reelected moonbeam but cast down the legalized smoking of weed" What gives?
 
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