Jackal
Member
My scout equipped M44 will do 1" 5 shot groups all day at 50yds, using Barnaul SP ammo.
can anyone actually hit squat with their Mosins?
- Thread starter silverlance
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Shrinkmd
Member
My 91/30...
1933 izzy, forced match on magazine plate. Mojo sight installed.
Off the bench with Polish surplus, I have a S-14 100 yd target with 15 rounds in it, 1 X ring, 5 inside 10, 3 in the 9, 2 in 8, 3 in 7 and one out at the 6. I know it's not MOA, but with open sights I'm reasonably happy.
1933 izzy, forced match on magazine plate. Mojo sight installed.
Off the bench with Polish surplus, I have a S-14 100 yd target with 15 rounds in it, 1 X ring, 5 inside 10, 3 in the 9, 2 in 8, 3 in 7 and one out at the 6. I know it's not MOA, but with open sights I'm reasonably happy.
Eightball
Member
I can get 2" MOA, standing, 100 yds. Haven't tried it benchrested.
How do I know it's 2MOA? Shooting a target 2MOA diameter
, with opens.
Izveshk, 1942
How do I know it's 2MOA? Shooting a target 2MOA diameter
, with opens.Izveshk, 1942
silverlance
Member
well here are the stats
M91/30, War Years. Rearsenaled from Century. Big 5 cost : $89
Ammo: Czech Silvertip. Probably 1950s. Copper jackets are a tad green (!!)Target: Brinell 500 8" plate at 50 yards.
Position:
- standing, offhand: will hit plate once every 5 shots.
- prone: GAWD DANG that hurt like the dickens. my shoulder has been injured before, won't be doing that again unless i am in a shallow depression and can reset the rifle proper in shoulder and on dirt mound. i hit the target off the bat, though. didn't pull the trigger again.
- benched, off of a very crappy sandbag set that wasn't high enough and was rather unsteady: once out of every five shots.
okay, now that i look back on it - i suppose the positioning and ammo didn't help the rifle any.
so, to remedy that:
i need to get a better rest. probably sandbags. course, the idea of lugging about big sandbags every time i go to the range is not somethign to relish.
i should probably also get better ammo. but i'm not. it's not worth it to me to buy quality ammo for a gun that i only want to plunk (plink is only for small calibers) thingamajiggers with.
....
final note:
i've figured out an easy way to unlock the bolt after firing the silvertip that always makes the bolt stick.
just pull the safety knob back on the bolt until you hear a click. then the bolt will open easily.
not sure if that's safe, but it does work.
M91/30, War Years. Rearsenaled from Century. Big 5 cost : $89
Ammo: Czech Silvertip. Probably 1950s. Copper jackets are a tad green (!!)Target: Brinell 500 8" plate at 50 yards.
Position:
- standing, offhand: will hit plate once every 5 shots.
- prone: GAWD DANG that hurt like the dickens. my shoulder has been injured before, won't be doing that again unless i am in a shallow depression and can reset the rifle proper in shoulder and on dirt mound. i hit the target off the bat, though. didn't pull the trigger again.
- benched, off of a very crappy sandbag set that wasn't high enough and was rather unsteady: once out of every five shots.
okay, now that i look back on it - i suppose the positioning and ammo didn't help the rifle any.
so, to remedy that:
i need to get a better rest. probably sandbags. course, the idea of lugging about big sandbags every time i go to the range is not somethign to relish.
i should probably also get better ammo. but i'm not. it's not worth it to me to buy quality ammo for a gun that i only want to plunk (plink is only for small calibers) thingamajiggers with.
....
final note:
i've figured out an easy way to unlock the bolt after firing the silvertip that always makes the bolt stick.
just pull the safety knob back on the bolt until you hear a click. then the bolt will open easily.
not sure if that's safe, but it does work.
Cosmoline
Member
I've had many MOA and sub MOA mosins over the years, mostly Finn. If you grab some POS parts gun from Big 5's garbage bin and feed it second rate surplus ammo, you're probably not going to have great accuracy.
Try getting a matching pre-WWII Soviet 91/30 or a nice Finn and feed it the ammo it likes. I've had great results with the Wolf or Barnaul 200 grain commercial ammo. It's cheap and the Mosins tend to prefer it over the lighter ball.
If it's sticking after shooting you probably have a POS parts gun that soem importer tossed together. You buy crap and you'll have poor results.
Ah ha! There you go. Which is riflespeak for Century's apes forced it together. I trust Aztec International to do a good job putting them together and maybe WGA, but not Century. Get a proper Mosin with matching parts and a good loose bolt fit.
?? The modern Russian production runs from $5 to $8 per 20, so I'm not sure how much cheaper you want it.
Try getting a matching pre-WWII Soviet 91/30 or a nice Finn and feed it the ammo it likes. I've had great results with the Wolf or Barnaul 200 grain commercial ammo. It's cheap and the Mosins tend to prefer it over the lighter ball.
If it's sticking after shooting you probably have a POS parts gun that soem importer tossed together. You buy crap and you'll have poor results.
Ah ha! There you go. Which is riflespeak for Century's apes forced it together. I trust Aztec International to do a good job putting them together and maybe WGA, but not Century. Get a proper Mosin with matching parts and a good loose bolt fit.
?? The modern Russian production runs from $5 to $8 per 20, so I'm not sure how much cheaper you want it.
Cosmoline
Member
It's totally different from Mauser style bolts, because it's in three parts. The fit should be quite loose in the hand and even sloppy. The best Finns always seem to have a nice amount of slop in the bolt. Indeed when they tried to tighten the fit up with the M-27's it led to lots of problems. If the Mosin's bolt is going in and out sitcky and stiff even before you start shooting it, it's a sure sign it's a poor fit. When I select one I always do some dry firing and slap the bolt in and out using the original method:
It should be easy to smack it around and it shouldn't get stiff or hung up on either stroke. The recocking on opening should offer a little resistance but not too much. If it's too little that's a sign the main spring is used up.
It should be easy to smack it around and it shouldn't get stiff or hung up on either stroke. The recocking on opening should offer a little resistance but not too much. If it's too little that's a sign the main spring is used up.
TimboKhan
Member
Not that I am implying that your lying, but really? A foot and a half at 25 yards?
silverlance
Member
re: cosmo
well, here's the thing
all the numbers match. i put a live round in, chamber a round, real smooth. I life the handle, eject round... also smooth and easy.
HOWEVER - if i actually FIRE said round, i then have a HELL of a time trying to unlock the bolt. if i really yank on it, it'll open, but it's not pretty.
some guy told me here on thr that this is because the silvertip ammo expands the steel case in the chamber upon firing - bad powder, case, whatever. that's what's causing it to become real hard to unlock, and that if i use wolf or barnaul my problem will go away.
what do you think?
well, here's the thing
all the numbers match. i put a live round in, chamber a round, real smooth. I life the handle, eject round... also smooth and easy.
HOWEVER - if i actually FIRE said round, i then have a HELL of a time trying to unlock the bolt. if i really yank on it, it'll open, but it's not pretty.
some guy told me here on thr that this is because the silvertip ammo expands the steel case in the chamber upon firing - bad powder, case, whatever. that's what's causing it to become real hard to unlock, and that if i use wolf or barnaul my problem will go away.
what do you think?
silverlance, alot of people have reported "sticky bolt" problems after shooting lacquered, steel-cased ammunition, especially the Czech surplus. I haven't tried any myself, but there are many helpful suggestions on Gunboards about the phenomenon. I shoot steel-cased Brown Bear / Barnaul out of a 91/30 all the time with little difficulty.
jmm
jmm
armoredman
Member
Cosmo left over in microscopic pits, heated when fired, mixed with laquer on steel cases, sticks the cases. Use a drill, a chucked 20 ga brush, and drill the snot out of the chamber with your favorite degreaser. Then take a cordless drill to the range, and do it again after firing a few rounds.
Pristine Hungarian M44.....avg 2-3" at 100 yards.......from a bench........scout scope. Just put a bent bolt on and going to try a brake or flash suppressor to reduce the fireball. Very handy and fast handling rifle for precision shots.
Just put a bent bolt on and going to try a brake or flash suppressor to reduce the fireball. Very handy and fast handling rifle for precision shots.stumpjumper213
Member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2006
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- 6
I dont understand I bought a mosin that was made in 1915 . It had a barrel that was a little longer then the 91/30 .I deer hunted with it ,and other hunter on seeing it made fun of it.Because it was long and thay haden seen nothing like it.But as some say ,proof in the pudden.I killed a nice 8 point buck,what did thay get with their 450 to 500 dallor rifles ,nothing. Then came a test one day .A friend of my was shooting at a target 200 yards away using his 7mm magnum .He shot 5 times and I shot 5 times .He was using a scoop , I was using open sights .Both of us had about a 4 inch group. Another event was when I was hunting and my son.He was 17 at the time and a big doe came out , and I said to him .If I make this shot ,it will be the best shot I ever made with open sights.It wasnt that I couldnt make the shot, it was I had never shot at a deer at 200 yards .But with one pull of the trigger down she went..Since then I have made long shots and always came home with a deer .Could be the bullets you have been using,I never use surplus ammo.My mosin 44 shoots about a 4 inch group at 100 yards.I like it for hunting in the woods.I take the bayonet off when hunting with it.
R.W.Dale
Member
YEP 100yds Open sights S&B SP ammo and a rotten rusty pitted bore
rangerruck
Member
I have an unissued, all match #s, mosin 38, that is , .....dare i say it.... moa. thats right M.O.A.! Now i will go one step further, it will do this with 3 diff mfgrs, and multiple dif weights! Please don't hurt me. it will do it with czech milsurp stuff, wolf in 150, 185 and 205's, and silver bear, and a couple other brands. I really dont know what to tell you, I normally would say to check the normal things you do on a rifle. make sure all scews are tight, make sure your "free float" doesnt change or the sticking points shift, after you heat her up. check the muzzle , check the bore. check the action screws, you know the usual suspects.
Cosmoline
Member
Imperfect headspacing and fitting, as a result most likely of a slap-dash assembly by the importer. Extraction should be nice and smooth. Crud buildup is a possibility, but you can check that visually. Other loads may not cause as much problem.
cracked butt
Member
I have a prewar 91/30 it shoots very impressively, I'm not going to make any wild claims that it shoots 1/2" groups all day long but I can easily keep all of my shots in the black on a 25 yard pistol target at 100 yards- good enough for communist crap . I have a 1941 91/30 that shoots good, though 1' high at 100 yards- there is also a huge difference in overall quality between prewar and wartime 91/30s.
Carbines- I have 3 of them- can barely keep shots on a piece of typing paper at 50 yards. I really don't have much use for mosin carbines except for filling gaps in my collection.
. I have a 1941 91/30 that shoots good, though 1' high at 100 yards- there is also a huge difference in overall quality between prewar and wartime 91/30s.Carbines- I have 3 of them- can barely keep shots on a piece of typing paper at 50 yards. I really don't have much use for mosin carbines except for filling gaps in my collection.
rangerruck
Member
also go here, and here;
http://7.62x54r.net/
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/
oh, and also here.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianmosin189130/index.asp
you can fix that sticky bolt problem, and also do about a 10 cent washer/trigger job, and your pull lenght and weight will be cut by about half or more!
http://7.62x54r.net/
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/
oh, and also here.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianmosin189130/index.asp
you can fix that sticky bolt problem, and also do about a 10 cent washer/trigger job, and your pull lenght and weight will be cut by about half or more!
Beetle Bailey
Member
If you want to see what your rifles can do, the best way is to use sandbags. You only have to try it once, then you can leave the sandbags at home and shoot as you normally do. If you want lighter sandbags, buy the unfilled ones and fill them yourself, but don't use sand like you get at the beach, use kitty litter. It's a lot lighter and works just as well.
The worst Mosin Nagant I ever shot was a Hungarian M44 with a very pitted oversized bore. A brand new .30 cal brush slid thru the barrel with ease. My buddy had to use a slightly worn 9mm brush to clean it up. Using a sandbag filled with (you guessed it) kitty litter, I was able to get consistant 3" groups at 50 yards. At the time, I thought that was pathetic, since I was used to doing better at 100 yards with my M39's. The fact that I set off a car alarm, and the fact that I could feel the concussion of the fireball coming out of the barrel each time I shot it was its only saving grace.
The worst Mosin Nagant I ever shot was a Hungarian M44 with a very pitted oversized bore. A brand new .30 cal brush slid thru the barrel with ease. My buddy had to use a slightly worn 9mm brush to clean it up. Using a sandbag filled with (you guessed it) kitty litter, I was able to get consistant 3" groups at 50 yards. At the time, I thought that was pathetic, since I was used to doing better at 100 yards with my M39's. The fact that I set off a car alarm, and the fact that I could feel the concussion of the fireball coming out of the barrel each time I shot it was its only saving grace.
silverlance
Member
hm ok cosmo
i get what you are saying. i won't be buying century imports again.
i'll stick a 20g brush in my cordless drill and scrub it out. what do you mean by "chucked", though? and how do you get it to fit in there - do you make an extension for the brush? perhaps attaching it to a piece of cleaning rod?
i'm going to order some break free powder blast tomorrow, and on sunday i will do this at the range.
i'm also going to stop by the store and buy a box of wolf x54r, to see if this is different.
...
I STILL don't understand something, however. why would the bolt unlock real easy after i pull the safety knob back? this leads me to wonder if the bolt's sticking is actually the parts inside the bolt, and not the chamber....
i get what you are saying. i won't be buying century imports again.
i'll stick a 20g brush in my cordless drill and scrub it out. what do you mean by "chucked", though? and how do you get it to fit in there - do you make an extension for the brush? perhaps attaching it to a piece of cleaning rod?
i'm going to order some break free powder blast tomorrow, and on sunday i will do this at the range.
i'm also going to stop by the store and buy a box of wolf x54r, to see if this is different.
...
I STILL don't understand something, however. why would the bolt unlock real easy after i pull the safety knob back? this leads me to wonder if the bolt's sticking is actually the parts inside the bolt, and not the chamber....
Tyril
Member
My 1942 91/30 is a piece of ... well ... crap.
At 50 yards, I can hit an 8" target just about 90% of the time. (Benched)
At 100 yards, the groups are about 12-14".
At 200 yards, I fired one magazine, and there was a perfect 'X' bulls-eye. No kidding. Of course, the other four missed the paper entirely....
Polish Light Ball (440/$35) is all I shoot.
-mike
At 50 yards, I can hit an 8" target just about 90% of the time. (Benched)
At 100 yards, the groups are about 12-14".
At 200 yards, I fired one magazine, and there was a perfect 'X' bulls-eye. No kidding. Of course, the other four missed the paper entirely....
Polish Light Ball (440/$35) is all I shoot.
-mike
Cosmoline
Member
Mosins are cock on opening, not cock on closing. So part of the force required to open them also cocks the rifle. By pulling the knob back you are cocking it yourself. I suspect the entire bolt is poorly fitted.
I would also suggest that you check to make sure your action screws are nice and tight. I'm amazed how many people fail to even check them, and shoot rifles that are jumping aound in the stock.
George S.
Member
I bought a 1931 hex receiver Izzy 91/30 from Big 5 a couple of years ago. I found out real quick about the ages-old cosmoline/old lacquer and heat from firing when I had to take a hammer to the bolt to get it open
I spent a few days with a brush and lacquer thinner to get most of the old junk out so the bolt would cycle without having to whack the bolt with a hammer or stomp on it with my foot. As long as I don't use a lot of the steel-case ammo, the bolt will open with not too much effort.
When I first got the rifle home, I took a close look at the bore and I did not see any indication of shine or anything that looked smooth. It looked something like a gravel road. AFter lots of cleaning and passes with a brozne brush, it looked clean enough to try shooting so off to the range with it.
I was really suprised to get 3" groups at 50 yards after some sight adjustments. Placed a 6" Shoot 'n' See target out at 100 yards and got 8 out of 10 shots on the paper. I took an 8" target out to 200 yards (too long of a walk to shoot a lot!!) and got 10 rounds within a 10" circle.
I had read somewhere that the Russian accuracy standard for the WWII version of the 91/30 was to shoot 8" groups at 200 meters. This was supposed to be "Minute of Nazi" for the rifle and the Russian conscripted soldiers (who for a large part could not read or write, much less shoot a rifle) were expected to be able to qualify at that level. I'm pretty happy with my 91/30 in that it still shoots somewhat close to that in spite of the relative condition of the barrel. Think it was the best $79 I have ever spent on a firearm.
I spent a few days with a brush and lacquer thinner to get most of the old junk out so the bolt would cycle without having to whack the bolt with a hammer or stomp on it with my foot. As long as I don't use a lot of the steel-case ammo, the bolt will open with not too much effort.
When I first got the rifle home, I took a close look at the bore and I did not see any indication of shine or anything that looked smooth. It looked something like a gravel road. AFter lots of cleaning and passes with a brozne brush, it looked clean enough to try shooting so off to the range with it.
I was really suprised to get 3" groups at 50 yards after some sight adjustments. Placed a 6" Shoot 'n' See target out at 100 yards and got 8 out of 10 shots on the paper. I took an 8" target out to 200 yards (too long of a walk to shoot a lot!!) and got 10 rounds within a 10" circle.
I had read somewhere that the Russian accuracy standard for the WWII version of the 91/30 was to shoot 8" groups at 200 meters. This was supposed to be "Minute of Nazi" for the rifle and the Russian conscripted soldiers (who for a large part could not read or write, much less shoot a rifle) were expected to be able to qualify at that level. I'm pretty happy with my 91/30 in that it still shoots somewhat close to that in spite of the relative condition of the barrel. Think it was the best $79 I have ever spent on a firearm.
Pumpkinheaver
Member
At the range I belong to we have steel gongs at 100, 200 and 300 yards. It's very easy to bust any of them with the 2 M44's I have. My bud has one scoped and he can hit a bowling pin 8 out of 10 times at 300 yards.
silverlance
Member
=( ive got 3 mosins like that
oh bugger bummer bugger.
i sure hope it's not the bolts that aren't fitted properly, because all my mosins have this problem.
could it be that i reassembled them after cleaning improperly? I don't think i did - i used the little tool to make sure that the FP protrudes between Min and Max protrusion. i did however sort of cheat when putting it back together, using the tool as a wrench to screw FP and body together rather than pressing down with one hand and turning the body.
i just ordered a set of coin headpsace gaugues. they were all supposed to have been headspaced according to the dealer, but oh well.
oh bugger bummer bugger.
i sure hope it's not the bolts that aren't fitted properly, because all my mosins have this problem.
could it be that i reassembled them after cleaning improperly? I don't think i did - i used the little tool to make sure that the FP protrudes between Min and Max protrusion. i did however sort of cheat when putting it back together, using the tool as a wrench to screw FP and body together rather than pressing down with one hand and turning the body.
i just ordered a set of coin headpsace gaugues. they were all supposed to have been headspaced according to the dealer, but oh well.
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