can anyone actually hit squat with their Mosins?

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Okay, first of all, there's a lot of misinformation being thrown around in this thread.
Century Arms is an importer, and they also manufacture firearms (usually converting a select-fire rifle such as a FAL, CETME or AK-47 variant into a semi-auto, from parts kits) which have a well-earned reputation for off-and-on quality.

However, the milsurp bolt-actions they are importing are not parts-jobs, unless they were parted together at the remanufacturing plant in their home country half a century ago before being slathered with preservative and packed in warehouses. The quality-control issues are more to do with the original condition of the firearm itself after being used or poorly rearsenaled, and Century has nothing (thankfully) to do with that besides grading the items they import.
Buying from Big-5 is literally a crapshoot if you aren't knowledgable enough to know what to look for in a milsurp item, but that goes for gunshows and online auctions as well. Don't buy a used gun that you can't inspect first, is a good rule to live by. Bring a cleaning kit and be prepared to use it when you go to look at milsurps with money in your pocket.

Sticky-bolt syndrome is a common problem, and has a simple, if intensive, solution. For what it's worth, I've not had this issue, as I use a foaming bore cleaner and this will remove anything sticking in the pits of the chamber.

Anyway, to innacurate shooting.

First of all, as Cosmoline mentioned, the two screws holding the action and magazine assembly in the stock MUST be hand-tight. Don't torque them, just use a screwdriver and wind them in there as hard as you can. Make sure the action fits into the wood properly, and that the stock is not warped.

Change ammunition type. This can't be emphasized enough. I have yet to encounter a rifle that is not finicky.
None of my mosins will fire Brown Bear accurately, for example, nor will they throw Czech training ammo in anything resembling a group.
However, as I have tried nearly a dozen brands and surplus ammo types, I have discovered that they all like the Wolf black-box softpoint, and FMJ.
I would not count on that being consistent with any additional rifles I acquire, but would test every cartridge again just to make sure.

Best ammo I've found:
Wolf black box SP and FMJ
S&B softpoint
Hungarian yellowtip heavy ball (from my M39)
Polish light ball (from M39 and father's M91/30)
Czech silver-tip light ball (from M44)

As far as my own experience with Mosin rifles:

Hungarian M44- sewer bore, but a nice action and trigger. Pretty much shoots like crap, but acceptably well for woods hunting (5 moa) with Wolf SP. I'll be bedding the action into its hacked-up ATI stock, and doing a trigger job, to cut that down a bit.

Finn M39- simply a gem. It shoots Wolf SP into 3" groups at 200 yards with open sights. Beautiful rifle, handles and shoots well. I need more of these. :)

Remington M91- my collection's crown jewel. I bought it for $100 at an ACE Hardware, willing to accept its sporterised condition for an off-chance at an excellent rifle. A scout-mount from makarov.com was just the ticket, as the original rear sight assembly had been removed and a rudimentary peep sight literally screwed onto the back of the bolt. Even with a cheap little BSA 2x scope I wrung a couple MOA groups out of the rifle with some S&B and Wolf softpoint. I'm moving up to a 4x Simmons, and expect to see great things from this rifle built in 1917 for the Czar's army.

Edit to crow a bit:

That M39 Mosin tied me for first place in last month's High-power match at the local range. It was a small crowd, but I was shooting against customized rifles and handloads with a 60+ year old military rifle firing surplus Hungarian heavy-ball. I would demurr that the weekly shooting schedule I work at is part of that victory, as well as luck, but still; I would not have placed if the rifle itself was not an excellent performer.
 
This is a great thread.

It has finally brought a little realism and truth to the internet when it comes to discussing accuracy.

What I see on the range, and what I read on the net are very different things. Seems everyone on the net has a rifle that is very accurate. This means, that either 1] every range I go to is filled with horrible shooters with crappy rifles 2] people reporting accuracy have problems with measurements - ie, they think 2" is equal to 8" (heh, that reminds me of a joke) 3] these are all fish-stories.

It almost gets absurd when you read post after post of people who write about a recent purchase, often a milsurp, and their 2moa or better (often better) performance. Yeah right. Same thing with the AR and AK crowd (with the exception of some accurized AR's and accurized bolt-actions like the kind Zak has).

It's amazing, it almost makes you believe that you simply can't go wrong spending less than $200 on a rifle when looking for decent accuracy (like around 2moa, K31 is the exception when using handloads, but of course - they didn't go through a war). Or that if you FF an AR - it will be a 1-hole tack driver..or that quality AK's can shoot groups that touch at 100 yards IF "you do your part"...yeah - touch what? Paper?

The reality is, that most of the rifles commonly discussed here are no where near as accurate as the claims made about them (as a whole). Most of these weapons have iron sights. If someone can take an old milsurp, use irons, and shoot 2 moa or better CONSISTENTLY (not the miracle group of the day, week, month or year). 1] they have an unbelievable rifle specimen 2] they should be competing professionally - as many shooters can't even see a 2" spot at 100 yards unless it is glowing or they have optics.
 
Isn't it Col Cooper who said, only accurate rifles are interesting? That's why I reload. My Enfield was doing 2.5" groups with Fed 150gr PowerPoint ammo at 100 yards, admittedly 2 inches high, but that's normal with a 300 yard flip sight. Yesterday my 1920 Mosin 91/30 came in, and I hope to get her to the range on Friday morning to see what she can really do. if she shoots like the guy who sold her to me says, then I have a rifle worthy of the 7.62x54R dies under the reloading bench, and not just surplus ammo.
 
The post from Don't Tread On Me is spot on. I have ONE Mosin that will do good groups, but only with a few types of ammo and it's also scoped. One of my 91/30s will do about 8 MOA with open sights at 100 yards, another is still in cosmoline, and the Finn has a few issues (sticky bolt, barrel bands coming loose, cleaning rod sliding out). The first M38 I had made shotgun patterns at 50 yards, and will sometimes hit a 200 yard gong with the right ammo. The Polish M44 does much better, but we're still talking 8x10 sheet of paper 100 yards. I recently picked up a non-counterbored 1945 M38 that I hope can manage the same, but I'm not holding my breath.

There are some diamonds in the rough, but there's alot of rough.

jmm
 
Tell it like it is, Don't Tread On Me.
Every time I read a thread like this I come away shaking my head. Half the posts are trying to tell me that a war time production mil-surp rifle that is 75 years old, with iron sights and factory ammo will shoot BETTER than my modern Winchester/Remington/Ruger bolt guns with handloads and scopes. :scrutiny: What makes it even more ridiculous is when I have owned dozens of milsurp rifles and regularly compete in monthly milsurp rifle matches and see hundreds of milsurp rifles fired in competition http://vegasshooters.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=vmbar. They just don't seem to live up to my experience. Furthermore, if you read the government specs for many of these rifles you will find that most of the rifles in these posts exceed those minimum specs by 400 or more percent.
Is it POSSIBLE that someone, somewhere has an $80 grungy milsurp rifle that will shoot in one MOA at 100 yards ? I suppose it's possible. Should the discovery of that rifle be on the front page of every newspaper in the world ? Absolutely (This is an exageration, take it easy).

Milsurp rifles are loads of fun. I own many of them and enjoy shooting them all. Most of my current shooting buddies are guys I met at milsurp rifle matches and we discuss them endlessy. We buy the books and try to learn all about them. BUT, let's not try to make them into something they are not. They are not precision varmint/sniper rifles.
 
Wow, I guess my 91/30 isn't really as bad as I thought. I can get 6-8" groups at 100 yards with surplus (tried al different kinds). My M39s can do 1.5-3" groups depending on the ammo. My 91/59 carbines do 2-3" at 50 yards.

And concerning the iron sights... ever hear of Darrell's scout mounts? ;)
 
well, it's settled.

I appreciate all the thought and effort evidenced by the many posters on this thread (in particular cosmoline and Koo). That's why I come here so often.

Anyhow, I've decided that I'm basically going to sell my two m91/30s, my m38, and my m24/47 yugo.

I'm keeping my K98, my m91/30 "sniper", and will add to it an m1 garand and a large ring mauser that I hope to get cheaply somewhere as a bubbafication project (i want to put that new ati scope mount stock on an old mauser... more for the fun of putting it together and blowing up rotten tomatoes at 50 yards than anything else).

the sale of the four rifles will go toward the purchase of the m1 garand.

I"m going to list them all this week as I go off track (i'm getting my "summer vacation" as a teacher). I have a c&r, and I should be able to ship direct to anyone who also has a c&r.

the mosins are really very aesthetically beautiful rifles, but they are just too much darn trouble to work with. i supsect, in the case of the 91s, that much of the problems stem from their being war time rifles that were hastily slapped together to keep conscripts from having to share rifles (the beginning scenes from "enemy at the gates" comes to mind). someone who knows more about guns, has more experience, and owns more tools will hopefully benefit from this.

as for my remaining mosin, I will order some wolf and s&b today, and try it out next weekend. i will also do the drill & degreaser trick then, along with further tightening of the action screws (now that you mention it, i think one of the screws on one of my mosins is in a stripped hole =( .. does anyone know how to fix this? pm me if you do..)
 
about darell's

yes, i bought darell's mount.

darn thing keeps coming loose.

it could be that i'm not putting it on properly, but i suspect that i should probably replace the brass screws with steel ones.

i emailed darell and he said that the brass ones are up to the task, but they don't seem to be as the mount keeps rising up in the back and leaving brass streaks upward.

the problem with the darell mount is that the mount really isn't being held in place by anything other than simple torsion.
 
Every time I read a thread like this I come away shaking my head. Half the posts are trying to tell me that a war time production mil-surp rifle that is 75 years old, with iron sights and factory ammo will shoot BETTER than my modern Winchester/Remington/Ruger bolt guns with handloads and scopes.

I stated that the best groups with any of my milsurps with factory ammo was 2.5 inches, benchrested, 100 yards, with the Enfield. Worst was 5-6 inches with the M38, Czech Silvertip, 100 yards benchrested. So far the few 7.62x54R reloads I have tried have not appreciably closed up groups in the M38, so those dies are dusty, but may be used with the 1920 91/30, asnit is a mid wars model, well built.
However, I DID get 1 inch groups at 100 yards with the Enfield No4 MK1*, benchrested, with virgin brass, 174gr .3105 Hornady FMJ/BT, over 32 gr H-4895. I did NOT say every single group was one inch, as some were larger, but most were at the inch level. I have a bunch more of that loading made up, and I hope it wasn't a freak day, as I am HOPEFULLY going to hit the range Friday morning.
Sorry, it IS a 63 year old battle rifle.
Also, the same bullet over 34gr of IMR 3031, neck sized and FCD, would printe 1.5x1 groups, but 8 inches above POA. I realize you don't believe me, but that's OK, I was there, and so was Herr Voody from Warrifles.com.

Is it POSSIBLE that someone, somewhere has an $80 grungy milsurp rifle that will shoot in one MOA at 100 yards ?
Nope, it's not an $80 grungy milsurp...it's a $50 milsurp!
 
re: MJ

is that a real sniper, or one of the replica ones that are on the market these days at SOG and classic?

i don't know if mine can do it - so far i've only tried to hit bowling pins at 50 yards.
 
All real ones from 1989~1993 time frame

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We also do alot of steel plates at 300 and 400 yards. I use the 174g Sierra MK bullet and IMR 4064.

MJ
 
I have a M39 that will hold a REAL 2 inch or under group with my handloads.a M28/30 that will shoot just a tad better and a K-31 that well...
excuse the flyer it was me:) .
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lots of factors must be looked at when people say my rifle shoots 12 ft groups.
1. the shooter.I see them at the range and alot don't have a clue about marksmanship,trigger control cheek weld ect.
2. they buy the crap ammo at the gun show and think there 50 year old mosin should shoot like a match rifle..nope crap in and crap out.
3.I have seen them rip of 5 rd's groups until the barrel is just flat smoking and..why are groups the size of a basket ball.see 1 & 2 above.

pete
 
Yes, I'll agree with the K31.

However, it is different. It has never been through a war. It was issued to riflemen - civilian militia that treated these rifles very well. Not ignorant conscripts. They were kept up in great shape. Being fixed and inspected by the national arsenal and REGULARLY checked for accuracy during qualifications. They were built by a people who strive for perfection and pay attention to detail and who have excellent workmanship.

These rifles, after extensive handloading research (trying different bullets, powders etc...) will do under 2moa on a consistent basis (rested and scoped of course). However, it won't break the MOA barrier consistently...


http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/pierre/loaddata.html


Now that's an accurate milsurp! Heck, that's an accurate rifle period. Under 2moa is good accuracy for anything, new or old.


I never said this accuracy wasn't possible - I just said that it certainly isn't the norm when it comes to milsurps, and that is regardless of shooter-skill. Add in shooter-skill (or lack thereof) and it is worse. Internet gives the impression that everyone picking up a $120 milsurp is getting 2moa and what a tremendous value it is. Makes me wonder how on Earth Savage or Remington's lower cost lines of bolt-actions even sell when up against that kind of accuracy competition!
 
:confused: :confused: seen alot of boobs out with rem/sav rifles also that couldn't hit paper at the range...regardless of skill:) :) :) :) .
pic from last month
K98K yugo
shoots mop (minute of pig):)
pigs029.gif

NutRub.gif

this pig charged out of the brush and was dropped at 40 yards as in the pic above.norma 196 gr sp just over the right eye went through the skull down the back breaking 4 ribs then exited on the off side.gotta love them milsurps.
pete
 
AH-1 said:
1. the shooter.I see them at the range and alot don't have a clue about marksmanship,trigger control cheek weld ect.
2. they buy the crap ammo at the gun show and think there 50 year old mosin should shoot like a match rifle..nope crap in and crap out.
3.I have seen them rip of 5 rd's groups until the barrel is just flat smoking and..why are groups the size of a basket ball.see 1 & 2 above.

You hit the nail on the head here. Shooter and ammo are the two main reasons that milsurps don't make good groups. That said, there are a couple of other factors.

Bore size and condition matter a lot. Matching bullet to bore size will improve things greatly, and a sewerpipe is a sewerpipe. Some of the surplus ammo was made with looser bores in mind, some was not. There are so many variables in it that only experimentation with different kinds will tell you anything.

Another misconception is that usng new made ammo is a sure way to accuracy. Standard Wolf is "bulk ammo", you can't really expect super accuracy from it. Wolf Gold is better, and even some of the surplus types, because of tighter quality control and more consistency.

Something that I have noticed on a lot of Mosins (which may or may not be true for other milsurps) is that they have damage to crown or the final couple of inches of the bore. It is not always easy to see, as a bore funneled out by improper cleaning can taper slightly enough to not be really detectable by the eye. However, that is bound to affect accuracy. An otherwise decent bore with a funnel on the end will not give you good groups. That's why the arsenals counterbored them.
 
If you are sure it is not the shooter or the ammo then must be a problem with the sights on the rifle. Check to make sure the front and rear sights are lined up properly. I
 
Well kiddos, you have to know how to select them at the store, you have to know how to feed them and you have to know how to shoot them. And if you do, you can indeed find tack driving mil surps. But if you grab a wartime 91/30 from chain store, whipe the cosmo off it and cram nasty surplus light ball in it, all bets are off. These are not rifles for someone who wants to spend little time reading books or examining load data. Those who are after a cheap way to get instant super accuracy will almost always be disappointed. Those who don't bother to learn about their rifles will almost always be disappointed.

I made a challenge a while back that was never accepted. Bring me your crappiest Mosin that shoots shotgun groups at 25 yards and I will tighten it up considerably. Maybe not MOA, but better than it was. Is it easy? Sometimes it's just a matter of tightening the receiver screws that the fellow who owns it never bothered to check. Sometimes it can get more complicated. With the problem cases you have to pay attention to matters such as bore size, bullet selection and powder. But so long as it's been headspaced and fitted reasonably well, with no permanent alteration to the rifle it can indeed be improved upon in almost every case. I've even gotten a war-battered M-91 to sing for me. It just takes time and some understanding of the rifle.

I also suspect that many long time rifle shooters used to using scopes simply don't understand how to properly use the tangents on an old war rifle.

as many shooters can't even see a 2" spot at 100 yards unless it is glowing or they have optics.

Case in point. You don't have to be able to see the 2" spot. You use reference points and allign using the whole of the sight system, esp. with tangents such as the M-39's.
 
"Every time I read a thread like this I come away shaking my head. Half the posts are trying to tell me that a war time production mil-surp rifle that is 75 years old, with iron sights and factory ammo will shoot BETTER than my modern Winchester/Remington/Ruger bolt guns with handloads and scopes."

Well, then, perhaps you should spend more time on the range than you do poo-pooing people that can make 'old' rifles shoot at least as well as our forefathers did.
:rolleyes:

"What I see on the range, and what I read on the net are very different things. Seems everyone on the net has a rifle that is very accurate. This means, that either 1] every range I go to is filled with horrible shooters with crappy rifles 2] people reporting accuracy have problems with measurements - ie, they think 2" is equal to 8" (heh, that reminds me of a joke) 3] these are all fish-stories."

Cherry picking is a big problem, and it's natural to pick out the best groups you got on a good day to gloat over. However, I think instantly doubting anyone that gets good results through honest sweat at the range is a bit harsh.

"Makes me wonder how on Earth Savage or Remington's lower cost lines of bolt-actions even sell when up against that kind of accuracy competition!"

Most people aren't willing to put in the effort required to learn how to use antique weapon systems, do their homework on what will work best in the rifle, and actually go out to practice with the arm... after cleaning a good pint of smelly petroleum distillates out of it. It's not hard to understand why milsurp collectors tend to be on the more dedicated end of the spectrum, and thus why they tend to get better results- the investment of time alone is daunting to people that just want to shoot a deer.
 
"Well, then, perhaps you should spend more time on the range than you do poo-pooing people that can make 'old' rifles shoot at least as well as our forefathers did."

You don't post where you live but let me invite you to our milsurp matches. We can always use another shooter of your caliber. I already posted a link to the match results but let me give you the match schedule: We hold a Milsurp rifle silhouette match in Boulder City Nevada the first Sunday of each month. You can use any semiauto or bolt military surplus rifle up to the M14 era. You will be shooting at standard rifle silhouette targets out to 500 meters. They say the match starts at 0800 but the first shot usually isn't fired until more like 0900. On the second Saturday of the month we hold a Vintage Military Bolt Action Rilfe (ViMBAR) match at 0900 at Desert Sportsman's in Las Vegas Nevada. The rifle HAS to be in "as issued" condition. No bedding jobs, no optics: it has to be as issued. On the third Saturday of the month at Desert Sportsmans in Las Vegas at 0900 we hold the Vintage Military Semiauto (ViMSAR) match where you can shoot anything up to the M14 in AS ISSUED condition: no National Match stuff. You get a couple extra points if you shoot the entire match with your bayonet attached. You get a few more extra points if you dress in uniform. (I do neither usually although I have shot a match or two using a bayonet) Then there are bigger matches held three times a year where our club gets together with a Utah club and we shoot this match: http://www.vimbar.com/ That match goes out to 800 yards using AS ISSUED milsurp rifles. The first day of the match is bolt action, second day is semiauto. People from 4 or more states shoot their milsurps at those Utah matches. Those Utah matches usually also have a sniper match where you have to shoot real, as issued, sniper rifles as well as shooting at aerial targets, tannerite, a little full auto stuff, 1000 yard matches etc. We normally hold the ViMBAR "World Championship" match at our club in the Winter. Along with the milsurp rifles we normally also have at least one stage with grenade throwing, rifle grenade shooting, bayonet sticking, and some kind of machine gun stage (we suppy the vintage military machine gun). There is also usually a little five or six round vintage military pistol stage or portion of a stage. One year we had a Maxim belt fed. One year I supplyed my Sten. I don't remember what happened last year.
On a good day we might get 40 people at our local matches and far more than that at those Utah matches. If you show up, you get to see a lot of milsurp rifles in action.

So, you got the talking done. Put up, or shut up. :rolleyes:
I will tell you up front: I have won all four of those matches at least once.
FWIW, I have shot most of these matches since they started and I have never seen anyone win one with a Russian Mosin Nagant rifle. I have never seen one of the serious competitors compete with one more than once either. I shot my 91/30 in a ViMBAR match once myself. I realized that it didn't shoot well enough to be competitive and never brought it back. There are guys that try everything they can to win these matches including buying a dozen or more rifles ( a dozen or more of the same type of rifle: a dozen MN 91/30s or whatever) and testing them all to find the most accurate one to keep. Again, even with cherry picking I have never seen anyone seriously compete with a Russian MN rifle.
 
It was a cold, rainy, Wisconsin morning. Having unknowingly told the owner of the company he worked for to "Go pleasure himself," and then calling a sleazy lawyer .45Guy suddenly found himself with some free time. He decided it would be a good day to take a crusty mil-surp to the range and see what she would do with a variety of ammo. After seeing the results, all he could think was perhaps part of the problem with mil-surp inaccuracy is kids picking up a rifle at Dick's and expecting it to magically transform them into Sgt. York, irregardless of skill or ammo selection. Note the difference between Federal Power-Shok SP's and WWB FMJ. The Federal being the first picture. Edited to add there was a dud with the Federal as well. Also edited to add, the first picture was taken as I was leaving....That's why it's sitting all haphazardly in the sight vise.
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1. bell co tx killeen
2.I shoot at ft hood rifle range
3.reg. your rifle with the mp's and lets shoot

pete
 
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