Can LEO's hit anything?

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Also, media bias helps in the perception that cops are poor shots. For example, anyone know how many people were shot by police in Ohio in the past two-week period? I doubt many do, because I know of two good shoots in that timeframe that I cannot find anywhere in the news. they got blurbs on the 11 o'clock report, a one paragraph mention in the Disgrace, and they're forgotten.

However, spray bullets all over the place and they'll be talking about you for weeks.

Confronting a BG and taking 2 righteous shots, both of which hit, is newsworthy for a day, at most.

Mike
 
Are there any LE agencies that require regular practice with duty weapons? Say 100 rounds a month provided by the agency.
 
I'm sure there are.

My agency requires quarterly qualification, and has a free range day once per week, when you can sign out as much ammo as you want, provided you shoot it all there.

This latter point varies depending upon who has their undies in a knot about what at any given time. Sometimes the rule is "sign out 100 rounds, and only shoot 100 rounds". Other times is it "sign out 100 rounds, shoot whatever you want." Now it is "sign out and shoot what you want." We're due to go back to "100-only" in a few months, I'm sure...but don't ask don't tell will be back in effect by fall. :cool:

Mike
 
We also have to qual 4x annually. They used to give us 150 rounds to take with us to practice. In the last couple of years they have gravitated to "return your brass and we'll give you 2x that amount in practice ammo, not to exceed 150 rounds"

Most of agents/officers shoot at a barely qualified level. They just don't get it.:banghead:
 
I spent several years at the academy as a firearms and tactics instructor as well as a couple of years doing the SWAT thing.

Like most here have said, there were good, okay and lousy shots. We tried our best, but the most difficult thing was overcoming the attitude of many (should I say most) officers. It is hard to teach a person to shoot well if all they care about is shooting their 70% once a year and that’s it.

Having said that, I have seen all sorts of shooting results in the real world. The SWAT guy that cranks of a dozen rounds with only one non COM hit. The barely shoots 70% patrol officer that shots one round and gets a perfect COM instant stop. It is hared to predict all the time, but those things happen.

Bottom line to me though is this, practice, practice, practice.
 
"Can LEO's hit anything?
*shrug*
Doesn't matter one way or the other to me.
Ain't my tail on the line. If they don't want to take the time, or have the interest, that ain't MY concern."

I like to think I care about all LEO's who are out there..whether they are good shots or not....but I guess this is just your frustration of not being able to carry.....


Since most of you are gun fanatics, it is hard to concieve of cops not practicing as much as you think you would..the fact is, once the intial excitement of wearing a badge wears off, things like shooting tend to lose their allure...especially when you are forced to qualify...just human nature....and it is doubly hard for those of you who desperately want to carry but can't to understand...also, being a crack bullseye shooter doesn't mean you will come out on top in a real shoot out.....that is more about state of mind and relfexes...
 
Ain't my tail on the line. If they don't want to take the time, or have the interest, that ain't MY concern."
Click to expand...
I'll bet you change your mind if your standing next to the boy he's "trying" to shoot. :)
 
As with non-LEOs, some shoot often and well, some not-so-often and not-so-well.

I'll second the fact that the media is only interested in evidence demonstrating the poor technical competence of LEOs and firearms.
 
Well, I have my own opinion on whether LEOs can shoot (at least the many I've witnessed over the years), and it ain't real flattering.

Suffice it to say that within a larger LEO group there will always be a number of highly-motivated shooters who practice a lot on their own - God bless 'em - but they're in a minority, in my area anyway. For the rest, their issue weapon appears to be just another thing they're required to carry on their belts between qualifications to keep the paychecks coming in, or so it would seem.

Anyway, in my area, Coronach's "quarterly qualifications" would be the exception to the rule. It's sure what I'd impose, were I running things. But most around here do it ONCE-A-YEAR, 50rds fired. A couple have recently gone to twice a year. This, I believe, is a post-9/11 change for those Depts. The courses of fire are pathetically easy, too. Maybe on one stage there's a mandatory reload. Doesn't matter though, because on each stage you'll get 3 chances to "pass" that stage. Even then some cops still have trouble and have to re-shoot the whole 50-rd course.

I've seen anal police administrators, who tend toward the politically-correct on the "gun thing" anyway, get an attitude over the time and cost involved for even this minimalist firearms "training": Hurry up, get it done. Quit wasting time at the range. Get 'em back on the street, or they'll be hell to pay if we run into overtime.

So yeah, you could say I'm somewhat jaded on the subject. :rolleyes:
 
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I can't help but keep thinking .. if i were a cop but not a real gun ''enthusiast'' - I would still I am sure want to be as max in proficiency as i could get.

I mean .. if I am armed and my life is on the line .............. surely I'd wanna hit the perp ..... not miss!!

Maybe the ''less keen'' cops don't think of it this way.
 
Howdy,

OK, there is something else I didn't bring up earlier because I'm not sure that it effects anyone except me.

Before I was an LEO I went to the range a minimum of once a week and fired 200-300 rounds of ammunition, mostly from 9x19 and .45ACP handguns, plus some practice with a .38 Special backup gun. It was fun, my skills really improved, and I figured it would help me once I reached my goal of becoming a police officer. I shot mostly at human shaped targets. I wasn't fooling myself, I was not shooting to win contests or for hunting, I was shooting just in case I ever needed the skills to shoot another person.

Once I became an LEO, I started pointing guns at people for real. At least so far, I have never had to shoot, but I have come really close. I was halfway through the DA trigger pull on my duty Beretta 92 when I realized that the "gun" in the perp's hand was a cap pistol. That happened less than a year into my time on the job.

Shooting was suddenly a lot less fun because it had taken on a reality for me. I went a year or so without going to the range outside department requirements ( three times a year at that PD). Eventually I worked my way back into shooting on my own, but I have never made it back to the level I was at before I got into LE. I shoot about 200-300 rounds per month now out of my handguns.

Cops have to "use" guns on the street a lot more often than non-LEO gun carriers, and I suspect that shooting is a lot less fun for them also.
 
Landric - you do have a point there ..... most of us are fortunate enough to not have to come face to face with that sorta reality. And, sure as hell .. I hope I never have to shoot ..... ANYONE.

I do tho still think (imagine) that I would still want my gun to be my ''best friend'', as a cop ... both to better protect my life, and also to better protect others. I certainly would like that percentage of cops who train little and care little also about proficiency .... to increase their skills ... for the good of all.
 
Interesting comments by all.

FWIW, I just had to do my semi-annual qualification for the Sherrif Dept. last Saturday.

I didnt do as well as I should have. I shot 249 out of a possible 250.

3 others scored the same.

Out of 50 deputys, most were in the 220-230 range.
About a dozen or so were in the 230-240 range.

Two failed and were given a chance to requal, which they did. The passing score is 200.

All in all, I dont consider that bad shooting.

Landric is correct. Its just a matter of time till an LEO draws his weapon and points it at someone whether it be for a felony stop or an irate drunk husband shooting his gun up in the air for effect.

Although I still consider it fun to shoot, it does take on a more urgent nature than it used too.

Another thing, and its just my opinion...

All that shooting at aB27 target proves is that you can hit a man sized stationary target 50 times in a row.

It dont mean much in the real world, for some reason people dont stand in one spot while you are trying to shoot them.The light or visibilty is never good, you cant really be sure of what they have in their hand until you see a muzzle flash, and shooting at a target is nothing like shooting at someone shooting back at you while your heart rate increases to 200 beats a minute, you have a major adrenaline dump and the sense of urgency becomes reality.
 
Well, ya know, up here, I know all kinds of cops. Generally, a good bunch of guys, at least the ones I know personally. The ones I've dealt with through my assorted driving mistakes are not bad guys either, if you treat them as a guy doing a job.
However, most cops have never seen a firearm prior to getting hired. They get their BA and can't find a job, so they apply. Ok, we have educated cops up here. Doesn't make them smart.
They get bugger all firearm training on basic and not a whole lot after. And they don't make use of the cheap practice ammo available to them. Used to shoot ISU with cop teams. Good guys, but some would use their POS service revovler and we regularly cleaned their clocks. Hard to beat tuned revolvers and Walther .32's with a Smith M10 that you're not allowed to fix the trigger on. Some of the FNG cops had the I'm a cop, why do you have a gun?, attitude. Not many though. Most of the time we'd discuss the merits of my Ruger GP100 as a carry gun. Nope, too heavy. Or what happened that us civilians weren't supposed to hear about.
And I do know one flat foot that could chase a pop can across a range with a 2" revolver. Mind you, he did walk from the Russian Front to surrender to the Americans during WW II. Served in FIVE armies so he did.
Can cops shoot? Mostly no. But neither can most military personnel. Does that mean we should respect them? Don't be daft.
 
We qualify quarterly and run through the 60-round course of fire at least three times. All of our shooting is from the holster.

Then anyone who is interested in practicing some more can do so while we're at the range - things that aren't in the quals. We also get another three boxes (150 rounds) for proficiency training during the quarter to shoot on our own time.

Myself, I try to shoot a box a week or at least every two weeks. That's about all I can squeeze in between work and family life.
 
Different LEAs, different needs

I shoot quite often at an indoor range that is used by Government Agencies, local PDs, Armored Truck companies and Guard companies for training and firearm qualification. I’ve noticed several things that seem to hold true for all these groups.

The first is that the quality of the shooter is directly related to the need for that ability.

The seriousness (quality) of the instructor is directly related to the abilities of his shooters.

What the groups “train for†determines their perceived abilities.

There are good shooters in all of these groups, but very few of these groups have all or mostly good shooters.

The best groups of shooters are in the Government Agencies. I don’t believe I’m supposed to know what the “best†group does. So I won’t say, but were they shooting in public, they would be shooting in high-density areas where a miss could be VERY problematic. These people shoot very well! I saw one instructor, drawing, shooting into a 3x5 card at 25 yards, and holstering. He repeated the process, over and over like a machine. Not all shots hit the card, but all that didn't were close, I was very impressed.

Below the Government Agencies are the local PDs. The problem with the local PDs is one of perception. For the most part, they practice and qualify in close, where in real life they live or die. As a shooter, respect on the range is earned with accuracy at distance. Police are not shooting for respect they are shooting to survive. I would bet that a good range shooter would die quicker in a gunfight, then the average shooting LEO. After all, that’s what they are really training for. I have noticed the LEOs ability seems to inversely proportional to their proximity to the city. Military service seems to be a positive indicator of shooting ability in police, even if they hadn’t shot handguns in the service. I shoot club combat shoots with some people I know to be local police, and some of them are good shooters.

The Armor Truck companies and the Guard companies, I’ve seen, don’t seem to need to be shooters at all. So I won’t go further here. I guess the gun being there is more important then ability. I’m sure, although I haven’t seen any, some of these people must be very good. But I don't think company training had anything to do with it.


Respectfully


jkelly
 
I would bet that a good range shooter would die quicker in a gunfight, then the average shooting LEO
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Jkelly ...... I would actually doubt that. Why?

Well, if you read thru much of the content on THR you will find that on balance, us so called ''range shooters'' are in fact pretty dedicated. We may shoot some ''precision'' and shoot over longer distances but, I think you will find that there is almost always an undercurrent of ''close up and personal'' type of practice.

I practice less than I used to but would still always expend at least as much ammo as any average LEO on a range session .... almost certainly way more. Plus ...... much of that practice is concerned with draw fluidity (always trying to improve that) ...... and then fast and accurate placement of shots, at various closer distances.

I'd hazard a guess that many range shooters are in fact potentially way more familiar with their carry piece than some of the less enthusiastic LEO's.:)
 
Based on being a firearms instructor as a LEO, I would say the average cop is better at weapon manipulations and continuity of fire operations than the average person who shoots recreationally. That means they have better weapons presentations, can clear malfunctions and can stay in the game. Now when it comes to actual marksman ship the recreation shooter has the edge, as he or she loves to shoot and does so at every opportunity. They don’t practice the areas they are weak in dealing with weapon manipulations largely because it’s not fun and they have never been formally trained on how to do so. That’s my take.
PAT
 
PAT - as mentioned above in response to Jkelly's post .. and I'd take issue with you also ..... I think we need to discriminate between the ''recreational shooter'' and the CCW.

Agreed, whilst the average recreational shooter could well be very accurate, it is possible they have not trained or practiced much beyond that.

IMO, the dedicated CCW will in fact try to cover just as much ground as the good LEO ... simply because he/she will usually wish to be as competant as possible.

This would include stoppage clearances, attention to presentations .... in fact any and every ''weak'' spot they might find in themselves.

Not trying to be ''clever dick'' ... no way . I respect your opinion and anyone elses ... so no ''P-ing match''!!:p

Just feeling that many very competant and diligent CCW's here might share my view.:)
 
IMO, the dedicated CCW will in fact try to cover just as much ground as the good LEO ... simply because he/she will usually wish to be as competant as possible.
END

Well it sounds as if your compentant which is good. I was basing my opinion of ccw holders on those I met when I was one myself before being a cop. Most seemed to be into guns and shooting but they did not seek out training. Rather they enjoyed spending money on new toys. I was the same way to a degree so I can't throw stones. Stay safe.
PAT
 
After a police department (which shall be nameless) was issued 9mm Glocks (17 round), one of the patrol cops heard a shot on the street. Drawing his new pistol, he went to investigate. There was an obviously disturbed man standing in the middle of the street holding an old revolver and firing into the air. The cop tried to get him to put the gun down, but the guy started waving it in the cop's direction, so, at a distance of maybe 10 feet, the cop fired. And fired. And fired. His 17th bullet nicked the guy and he went down, crying and weeping. They carted him away for quick patch job and an evaluation. End of incident.

The next day, the police chief got on the local radio station and declared that "if it had not been for the high capacity of our new pistols, this could have had a tragic ending."

No further comment.

Jim
 
LEO's have been trained to survive.

P95Carry,

My reasons for believing that an average LEO has a higher survivability likely hood in a gunfight is simply they train for the likely hood of one day having a shoot out at a few yards.
I shoot IPSC, I shoot IDPA, I shoot Club Combat shoots, I shoot Steel Plates, I shoot Bowling Pins, I shoot Bullseye, I shoot on average 3-5 times a week. But that does not prepare me for a close quarter gunfight like a LEO had been.

I haven’t trained in the proper use of cover, nor have I learned the dynamics involved in a gunfight. I may (or may not) have the offensive shooting skill needed to be successful in a gunfight, but I don’t have the survival skills needed to safely set myself up to use them. And, like in most combat type situations (I think) that means death is much more likely. You need to survive to succeed, and I have no training in that.

Perhaps you do, and that’s good, because that means fewer bad guys. But most good range shooters I know don’t. So I think I’d have to side with 355SigFan.

Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
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