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Can we ever "win"

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Charleo0192, May 20, 2011.

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  1. Charleo0192

    Charleo0192 Member

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    When I say "we", I mean the people who are pro-second amendment and by win, I mean successfully end the debate between what we see as our right and what they (those that are anti-second amendment) deem is not needed.

    To my thought, point, or whatever it is. We already have what we want. We have the right to keep and bear arms. Well not completely, so we do have a some more fighting to do, but that's not what I am getting at. We are defending these rights like crazy though. We lose part of it every so often, and sometimes we may even get a break and get some of it back.

    Now if this were a court case, I could be tried for something, but to my knowledge you can only be tried once for the same thing. Meaning if I was tried for murder and found not-guilty I could not be tried for the same crime again unless the charge was changed or (and I could be very wrong about this next part) unless outstanding evidence were to come about and 100% no-doubt about it proved I was the one.

    So while it is true that the debate on the second amendment is not a completely the same and it may not even be in the same boat, but is there any chance this debate could end without us, pro-2a, losing.

    It just seems wrong to be constantly "tried" over something and know you can never win. That at best you can prolong defeat, whether that means a few weeks, or hundreds of years.

    I hope I was understandable as I am not always that great at getting my thoughts out in an understandable way. To finish this up, I hope you find what I wrote to be interesting.
     
  2. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Member

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    We are winning, look at Supreme Court decisions, laws prohibiting suing gun companies, CCW laws expanding in more states. Gun owners have changed the political landscape to where politicians don't want to take on the gun lobby.....overall, the other side has lost a lot of ground.
     
  3. Charleo0192

    Charleo0192 Member

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    Whos on top at the moment isn't what I was getting at. We are on the defense. We can only do that. Be it defending by attacking their beliefs and opinions, or defending our own. As long as they are willing to fight to take ours away, we are stuck defending.

    Simply put, is there a chance we can ever win the debate, or will we always be stuck defending until they manage to succeed?
     
  4. almherdfan

    almherdfan Member

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    The simple answer is no. The debate will never end. That's not just a 2nd amendment thing, though. That's life.

    Heck, I can't make my mind up about which pistol makes the best cc--I've spent way too much money and have changed my mind about every 6 months. If I can't agree with myself for more then a few months, there is no way 300 million people will agree for long about anything.

    IMHO, the key is too stay away from extreme swings (aka prohibition, internment, AWB, etc.).
     
  5. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Unfortunately, Charleo0192, you've hit the nail squarely on the head and driven it all the way into the wood. Tyranny never tires.
     
  6. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Member

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    Those gains didn't happen by playing defense....they occurred by playing offense. The premise that we are on the defense is flawed. Keeping our rights is an ever vigilant effort that could be eroded if we become complacent.
     
  7. avs11054

    avs11054 Member

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    We are gaining ground, but "winning" is relative. There will always be the people who think "guns kill people." These people are not logical, and there is no way to change their mind.
     
  8. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Yes, we can, but do you really want what it would take???
    I'm pretty sure after the Revolution and Civil war, the anti crowd was muted, but....
     
  9. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

    It's been that way since the birth of society.
     
  10. Heretic

    Heretic Member

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    We have to make "anti's" socially unacceptable. Demean them whenever possible. Ridicule them. Make them embarrased to express their illness in public. Let them know they are not welcome in your store/church/home/etc.
     
  11. Charleo0192

    Charleo0192 Member

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    how is it flawed? We can only defend as we aren't trying to gain anything, but rather we are trying to keep what we feel is ours.
     
  12. LibShooter

    LibShooter Member

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    But gains are being made. And "we" are trying and succeeding in gaining more.

    If we define "winning" only as gun control advocates giving up, folding their tents and disappearing, then we'll never win.

    However, more states are instituting concealed carry, others are going to "shall issue." A few are moving toward permitless carrying. Polls show public opinion is limping in our direction.

    That doesn't mean we've won... but we are winning.
     
  13. whalerman

    whalerman member

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    I don't see that gains are being made. I see the Second Ammendment as only part of the personal freedoms we have, and I do not see us winning a thing. The world is slowly turning in favor of less and less personal freedom. Our national government is becoming more and more part of a world govenment, unwilling to make decisions based on a national interest. What we are now would have been unrecognizable twenty years ago. It has happened because of the loss of control of our school system. Our children do not appreciate the value of freedom. They are taught to comply. With that being the case, how can anyone have an optimistic view of the future of the Constitution? Remember, to liberals, the Constitution is a "living document". Meaning it can mean whatever one wants it to mean at any given time.
     
  14. Gord

    Gord Member

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    There is no such thing as "win."

    Constitutions can be amended, amendments can be modified, even treaties can be broken whenever it is decided that they are inconvenient or have outlived their usefulness. If you can't do things diplomatically, then you resort to force. Nothing is ever permanent or unchangeable - politically or ideologically.

    And so it goes.

    Life in general is simply one long battle to hold your ground against others who think that your ideas are wrong and theirs are right. Heck, even the Word of God has been split amongst different groups who derive different meanings - what chance do we normal folks have? :)
     
  15. whalerman

    whalerman member

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    It is not a question of winning over others to your "ideas" Gord. It is maintaining an environment where one can make one's own decisions. In other words, maintaining freedom. I'm not worried about the 2nd Ammendment, or even the Constitution for that matter. I'm worried about freedom. The rest will take care of itself. We are losing our freedoms because we have not educated our children on the value of liberty. There may not be such a thing as a total victory. But we will soon learn that there may well be such a thing as a total defeat.
     
  16. Gord

    Gord Member

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    I didn't say "winning over" anywhere - my initial phrase was "push back," which I thought might be taken in the wrong context (e.g., that we're losing ground or trying to project our ideas onto others), so it's now "hold your ground."

    There is no such thing as a total defeat, either. It is impossible to overstate how powerful a thing the human will is, and there will always be people willing to fight against any odds for what they think is right - whatever that may be.
     
  17. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Counter Entropy

    Well, I have some good news and some bad news.

    The bad news: there is a nearly inexhaustible supply of people who will want to take what's yours, confine you to harmlessness, enslave you to their purposes, and -- as a necessary predicate -- disarm you.

    The good news: we are reasonably well indemnified against their onslaught for some period of time by our constitution and the republican governmental structure it creates.

    The bad news: the players on Team Tyranny are like dragon's teeth -- they're relentless and and they keep popping up out of the ground.

    The good news: our system provides us with the means to fight back, to effectively resist the erosion of our rights.

    The bad news: it's expensive, time consuming, and requires organization and brilliance. Right now, we have some funding but need more, we have people putting in the time as permitted by the funding, and we have brilliance, which is a rare enough coin today. We have some organization, but as with any group of individualists jealous of their personal prerogatives, getting them to actually work together is something of a chore. Our organization(s) must be expanded and made effective.

    The good news: we're actually making inroads and effecting significant positive vectors for the first time in decades. See the above paragraph for clues on how to improve that.

    The bad news: our education and mental health systems are rigged against us.

    The good news: there are committed, effective, and active groups currently working to reverse the educational and mental health trends. They're slowly winning back lost ground in literacy and sanity.

    So we're making progress in winning back lost ground, and some groups who are beyond the scope of what we discuss here are working to fix the system that supplies the dragon's teeth.

    Life runs counter to entropy.

    "Winning" is the business of gaining ground against entropy, or at least not losing ground to it.

    We're currently winning.

    Don't expect the evil, stupid, and lazy elements around us to just give up. Just know that they are there, that they have been there a long time, that they will be with us for quite a while longer, but since evil, stupidity, and laziness are all engendered by miscalculations of one degree or another, realize that making mistakes is baked into the attitudes that drive them.

    Yeah, it's a lot of work, but clarity of vision and purpose, unbreakable resolve, and unfaltering persistence will see us through.

    Then, of course, the game changes.

    Having won our own liberty, it becomes our task to carry that same torch to the people who are still shrouded in the darkness of tyranny.

    And then we can wonder, in the fight to bring enlightenment and liberty to them, can we ever win?

     
  18. soonerboomer

    soonerboomer Member

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    The simple answer is "NO".
    Through our progressive political liberalization and the democratic process, I believe our 2A rights will continue to erode. The reason is the ideology of the emerging younger generations.
    I've worked with college students for 12 years, and I visit with them on a regular basis. Make no mistake, they think quite differently than many of us concerning the 2nd Amendment. I see these factors in their perspectives:
    1) Most have little to no exposure to responsible firearm use or ownership.
    2) Many view guns as evil, and people that own them as criminal or paranoid.
    3) Most are urbanized and have no experience or interest in the hunting/shooting sports.
    4) Many are pacifist, and believe evil can be overcome through education and diplomacy.
    5) Many believe the 2nd Amendment is either irrelevant in the 21st century, and/or that it does not apply to individuals.
    6) The vast majority practice and maintain a "sheeple" type of everyday thinking.
     
  19. Resist Evil

    Resist Evil Member

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    The good are few, the evil many. Life is whack-a-mole...for both sides. The good and the evil are constantly whacking away as each pops up. The battle between the good and the evil can never be won. As each works to gain primacy, the other does what it can to prevent it. Evil never sleeps, but I think the good do.
     
  20. whalerman

    whalerman member

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    "There is no such thing as a total defeat."

    Tell that to the Jews as they were filing politely off to the ovens. When freedoms consistantly erode, there is only one place it can end up. We are slowly but surely heading that way. People do not care. More concern is shown when the mall closes early. As long as a loss of freedom does not have an effect on them, people accept it.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2011
  21. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine Member

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    No, all we could possibly do is regain our Constitutional rights. Which would be just breaking even.

    The other side has nothing to lose, so every time a gun law is passed we lose rights and the other side scores a win.


    Since our "enemies" now have control of the Government, schools and news media we have no chance of "winning".

    All we can do is try to delay losing everything. Even that won't work because "we" are too preoccupied and lazy to fight our "enemies" effectively.
     
  22. Heretic

    Heretic Member

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    Why do people carry? Is it to go into the den of theives and clean it out? No, it's to deal with the problem when it comes to us. When enough people start to carry, the theives are afraid to leave their den. We need to cut the cancer of the "anti's" out of society. Will we then be able to rest on our laurels? No, we will always need to stay on guard against a return of the disease.

    DON"T BE A VICTIM!
     
  23. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Control

    That's not a permanent state of affairs. The remedies are off topic here, but please accept my assurance that this is not a "forever" thing.

    It's an uphill climb, and I don't envy those who have volunteered for it, and I wish they could finish the job while I'm still alive, but I have confidence that they will get it done.

    In the meantime, don't give up.

     
  24. Heretic

    Heretic Member

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    The other side has nothing to lose, so every time a gun law is passed we lose rights and the other side scores a win.

    That's what I'm saying. We have to give them something to lose. We have to single them out. We have to sue them, and then sue them again. We have to name them, label them, refuse to sell to them, refuse to rent to them, don't let your children play with their children,tell their children why. As long as we tolerate these leftists, we will lose.
     
  25. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    As you have defined "winning", the short answer is "no." In any group, there will always be disagreement. For every idea, there will he those who oppose it or don't accept it.

    We live in a pluralistic, political society, and in the real world there is going to be some "gun control."

    There will always be people out there who don't like guns (for whatever reason). There will be people who are scared of guns or of people who want to have guns. There will be some who think guns should be banned and private citizens shouldn't have them at all. Some may be willing to go along with private citizens being able to own guns as long as they were regulated. And such people will vote.

    We may think these people are wrong and that they have no valid reason to believe the way they do. We might think that many of them are crazy (and maybe some of them are). Of course some of them think that we have no valid reasons to think the way we do, and some of them think that we're crazy. But they still vote.

    Of course we vote too, but there are enough of them to have an impact. They may be more powerful some places than others. But the bottom line is there would always be some level of gun control.

    Of course there's the Second Amendment. But there is also a long line of judicial precedent for the proposition that Constitutionally protected rights may be subject to limited governmental regulation, subject to certain standards. How much regulation will pass muster remains to be seen. But the bottom line, again, is that we are unlikely to see all gun control thrown out by the courts; and we will therefore always have to live with some level of gun control.

    And I believe that it is vitally important that we understand that we can not expect everything to be resolved once and for all in our favor. It is vitally important because how much or how little control we are saddled with will depend. It will depend in part on how well we can win the hearts and minds of the fence sitters. It will depend on how well we can acquire and maintain political and economic power and how adroitly we wield it. It will depend on how skillfully we handle post Heller and McDonald litigation.
     
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