Can you, do you train enough?

[Infidel4life11]

Ever since I was a child I was absolutely in love with weapons. Growing up I was fortunate enough to have parents that let me have guns and teach me how to shoot them safely. The passion never went away. In the early 2000s I started taking my first steps into becoming a responsible armed citizen. My first taste of structured firearms training came the way of Gunsite and Valhalla. I started to carry off duty and every time I had the chance I went to the range. My range time wasn’t as structured as it should have been, it was more fun based and spent blowing off the ammo I just bought.

Around 2007 the Army gave me the opportunity to be on a Special Reactions Team (SRT) and sent us to Blackwater and SRT School. I was instantly hit with the fact that the Army doesn’t always teach its Soldiers to shoot/fight with a gun, rather teaches us to qualify. I could not get enough of the knowledge these instructors were giving us. Not just in CQB but how to actually fight with a firearms. I took everything I learned with weapons manipulations and brought it back to the line to teach during PMI. My off duty range time started to change a little bit and become more focused.

After some overseas and deployment time the Army gave me the opportunity to become an instructor. Not only was I teaching young Soldiers the ins and outs of my job but I was also able to use all my firearms experience and run the marksmanship program. After about a year of nonstop work I was able to attend the Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor Course taught by the Army’s SRT instructors. It was an eye opening six straight days of nothing but shooting and instruction. Right off the bat we shot a qualification none of us had ever seen before with timed strings of fire all from the holster. The next few days were filled with drills, friendly competition, case studies, and more amazing instruction. By the end of the week I watched my times decrease, groups shrink tremendously and qualified expert. By far one of the best Army schools there is. This experience taught me I had to train more and train right.

While at LEFIT I met Jim Shanahan, who instructed and co-authored the course. Jim retired after 21 years in the Army, contracted, taught Hostage Rescue for the past 6, is a USPSA Grandmaster, and has owned Advance Performance Shooting since 98. After the course I started training with Jim at APS. APS’ training is more in depth and structured than anything I have encountered before but at the same time it’s much more laid back. I started to get the “Why” factor out of everything I was learning. I train weekly with Jim and when I can I take a one or two day course taught by APS. My EDC and my equipment started to change too. APS has its own holster/kydex line of product that was born from a vast knowledge and a lifetime of experience carrying firearms, both stateside and overseas.

APS’ latest adventure is in CCW training, which I help instruct. I currently hold permits in 3 different states and I have yet to see a CCW class this dedicated to actual firearms carry. While state mandated standards are ok, I’ve seen a lot of people with little or no actual firearms training attain a CCW. APS’ CCW course nails all the state standards and covers all the realities of concealed carry.

”If you’ve never stood in front of an Attack Target or had an attacker coming at you from 21’ away, you will never know the value of 1.5secs.”

The latest chapter in my training came the way of a Protective Services Course. I felt a little pressure to do well at this course, due to my past training and some of the instructors knew of me. We would be shooting dot drills, bill drills, 1-5drills(the fastest with all hits won a little award), transitions from rifle to pistol, and a required qualification. During the qual I told myself that my goal was to have all my rounds in the inner box of the Omaha Q target. I shot 40/40 only throwing a hand full out of center box while I was at the 25m meter line shooting DAO with the M9 Beretta. A few years ago I would have settled for a shotgun like group and 38/40.

I believe the point I’m trying to make is: get out and train! Spend a little money on the some quality instruction. Vet your instructors and their programs, the latest zip-bang muti syllable phase may not be what you need. Balance in your training is very crucial, we don’t like to practice the things we are not good at. Last but not least shoot some competition if you can. Competition is a great way to measure your training and depending on your club or type of match it can be training in its own way.

Shooter Ready?

http://advancedperformanceshooting.com/

 

[Potatohead]

Well, im ready to go out and kick some butt after reading that!


But I think I'll probably just end up sittin here on the couch.

 

[Infidel4life11]

Well, im ready to go out and kick some butt after reading that!


But I think I'll probably just end up sittin here on the couch.

HAHA! Thank you.

 

[Al Thompson]

But I think I'll probably just end up sittin here on the couch.

 

[Sam1911]

Can I? No. Do I? No.

Every day is full of 1,000 choices, and every week, and every month. I try to make the most comprehensively proactive and beneficial choices I can about how to spend my time and my money. With some degree of regularity, that includes educated practice with arms. With less regularity it includes training in the use of arms.

If I live my life the way I hope to, I won't ever, ever, ever have dire need of one second of that training. But, if things go awry, I hope that the training I've received and the practice I've invested will be enough to meet the challenge of the moment.

 

[Kleanbore]

If I were to try to respond for myself, the substance would match Sam's note, but it would be less eloquent.

I went shooting today, striving for combat accuracy in rapid fire. Not too bad, but it was practice, and not training.

 

[cowtownup]

I think at the very least CCW holders should take a defensive handgun class.. Carrying a firearm and being able to safely deploy and use it are two different things. I am like most here probably, I reload more than I shoot and shoot more than I train.. however, I plan on training more as time and money permits...

 

[RustyShackelford]

Glocks....

I recently purchased a police trade in/Glock reconditioned 21 .45acp gen 04 with night sights. I considered a new Glock because Gander Moutain has a Academy location near me with the elaborate computer generated target simulation(s) with Glock type weapons. That's handy.
I've also seen the new iCombat system. That's a safe, advanced way to train/learn tactics. The Youtube videos say it's been in use with the FBI & military services with + results.
Nothing is as good as live fire or using real ammunition but that's not always practical.

Training & practice seem to be under-rated by many new gun owners/CCW license holders but it's important to maintain your skills/marksmanship.

 

[Infidel4life11]

Thank you all for the comments, I was hoping for this type of discussion. Maybe I should have thrown the word practice in there too. Technically I practice every week. I 100% agree that CCW holders should get some structured training. I really wish I knew of a way to get shooters more involved in actual training. Just getting people to come out to our practice sessions is like asking them to run 5miles. To date I have yet to get one Local LEO out to the range.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Time & $$$....

Many shooters/CCW license holders can't train or shoot as much as they'd like.
I went by a local range on Sunday(06/15/2014) & the pistol ranges were booked solid.
I can & do go to the rental places during the off hours(weekdays, 1000am to 400pm) when possible.
$ is another factor. I can't drop $$$ on 1000s of rounds or shoot 500-1000 rounds a week. I'm not in the ACE, ISA, DevGru, or AMU(Army Marksmanship Unit). Simulated training or lasers help defray the costs but even that isn't simple or cheap.

It's not a question of desire or willing but of $$$, time & logistics.

Rusty

 

[dbp]

Where is Advance Performance Shooting located? Did I miss it on their website?

 

[manithree]

I have 4 teenagers. I'm an assistant scoutmaster over 11 year-old scouts and an NRA RSO. I have a well-paying, but demanding career.

Then I fractured 2 vertebrae a few years ago. I don't know if I will ever be able to do multi-day, intensive training. After a couple of hours on the range, back pain and migraines set in and I'm done.

I do reload more than I shoot, and most of my range time is tutoring new shooters, my kids, their cousins, etc. and very little trigger time for me.

I carry every day and read (Ayoob, Cooper, Smith, etc.) voraciously. I wish I could train and practice more, but advertisers, Internet commandos, and the "only ones" aren't nearly enough to make me feel guilty about my current priorities.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

There is no such thing as enough training, in my opinion. We all have other priorities though, so we have to do what we can.

I agree with what was said on vetting the instructors. I try to stay away from two types of instructors; those that have never done what they teach when their life depended on it, and those that teach their way as the only way. That includes some of the bigger names. Good advertising does not equal good training.

 

[Potatohead]

I seriously did get fired up though.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Rob Pincus....

Well known firearms/tactics trainer Rob Pincus(check spelling) is doing a class near me in the next few weeks. Id like to attend it but lack the $$$.
Would I go to his course or other "high speed" programs(Thunder Ranch, Massad Ayoob Group, Bill Scott Raceway, Mid-South, SIG Sauer Academy, S2 Institute, etc)? Sure. But time & $$$ aren't always available.

I wouldn't make excuses for poor marksmanship or lack of training but unless your agency or company can bank roll you, you have to make hard choices.

Rusty

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

Well known firearms/tactics trainer Rob Pincus(check spelling) is doing a class near me in the next few weeks. Id like to attend it but lack the $$$.
Would I go to his course or other "high speed" programs(Thunder Ranch, Massad Ayoob Group, Bill Scott Raceway, Mid-South, SIG Sauer Academy, S2 Institute, etc)? Sure. But time & $$$ aren't always available.

I wouldn't make excuses for poor marksmanship or lack of training but unless your agency or company can bank roll you, you have to make hard choices.

Rusty

That guy is one of the ones that will never get my money (*edit* - It's not a knock on his training, just a personal observation). I'm with you though. I definitely don't get to train nearly as much when it's on my own dime.

 

[Old Dog]

I have been incredibly fortunate over the years to get advanced training courtesy of the government, both in the military and my post-military jobs.

I totally support the idea of training as much as one can within the constraints of one's budget and work schedule. It's fun!

Sometimes I think I over-train. I've been through enough training to notice that different trainers can have vastly differing ideas and also that there are a lot of folks out there who are putting out B.S., especially some of the guys gearing classes toward new shooters and new CPL holders.

I am trying to get time off from work to attend an Ayoob class at FAS coming up shortly, we'll see. He's one of the few guys in the business I truly respect.

To date I have yet to get one Local LEO out to the range.

That doesn't mean they're not training ... only that they're not attending your training. Dunno why you have to bring that up. Most LEOs, if they're serious gun guys and want serious training, will go for it but that doesn't mean you'll see a lot of them at local commercial training classes.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by RustyShackelford: Well known firearms/tactics trainer Rob Pincus(check spelling) is doing a class near me in the next few weeks.

The I.C. E. Combat Focus Shooting course is excellent.

The course is designed to provide the skills needed to improve one's chances of surviving a sudden violent attack at close range--the most common defensive situation. The differences between CFS and training for qualification or training for competition are eye-opening.

One will do better having first developed the skills to reload and to clear malfunctions quickly while moving and while not looking at the gun.

I was fortunate to have attended a course given by Rob Pincus. That's not a necessity, but in the discussions, we heard first hand the principles behind the curriculum, how they developed over time, and the reasons they are employed.

I cannot recommend it too highly.

 

[Old Dog]

I have heard that course is excellent. One suspects that much of the anti-Pincus feeling results from his well-known preference for one pistol platform and vocal bias against others ... Gun folk are very sensitive, it seems ...

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

I have heard that course is excellent. One suspects that much of the anti-Pincus feeling results from his well-known preference for one pistol platform and vocal bias against others ... Gun folk are very sensitive, it seems ...

There's more to it than that, but this thread isn't about dislike for Pincus. If he puts on some good training that some will benefit from and want to pay him for, good on them.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Old Dog: I have heard that course is excellent. One suspects that much of the anti-Pincus feeling results from his well-known preference for one pistol platform and vocal bias against others ... Gun folk are very sensitive, it seems ...

Rob does not express a "preference for one pistol platform". He recommends the Glock with a few mods, the Smith and Wesson M&P without a safety, and the Springfield XD series. He is now carrying an 4 inch XD-S 9MM, at least part of the time.

Rob writes that one time he preferred the Model 1911 (I'm so old that I remember when it was generally called the Colt Government Model or the Colt .45 Automatic). He can articulate the several advantages, but...read on.

He and his instructors have the opportunity to see many students using different pistols in hard use--800 plus rounds per pistol per class. They have better insight than most of us into which ones are likely to make it through the classes with the fewest malfunctions.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

Rob does not express a "preference for one pistol platform". He recommends the Glock with a few mods, the Smith and Wesson M&P without a safety, and the Springfield XD series. He is now carrying an 4 inch XD-S 9MM, at least part of the time.

Rob writes that one time he preferred the Model 1911 (I'm so old that I remember when it was generally called the Colt Government Model or the Colt .45 Automatic). He can articulate the several advantages, but...read on.

He and his instructors have the opportunity to see many students using different pistols in hard use--800 plus rounds per pistol per class. They have better insight than most of us into which ones are likely to make it through the classes with the fewest malfunctions.

How many self defense encounters have you experienced or even heard about where 800 rounds were fired? This really gives no insight, other than you should probably clean your weapons if you're going to carry them.

 

[JERRY]

start incorporating unarmed defensive tactics so that you can use your gun if attacked by surprise.

 

[Old Dog]

Rob does not express a "preference for one pistol platform".

A striker-fired polymer pistol without a manual safety ... that's not a preference?

I have seen plenty of SIGs, good-quality 1911s, CZs, Berettas and many others make it through exceptionally high-round-count classes with the fewest malfunctions.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by SnowBlaZeR2: If he [(Pincus)] puts on some good training that some will benefit from and want to pay him for, good on them.

He does, and the reservations fill up quickly. I do not know how many FCS instructors there are. That number is available, as are the names.

People who say they benefit from the course include people who instruct law enforcement personnel, and the say that the FCS curriculum makes much more sense than LEO qualification courses, for those who carry for real business.

I think the course is excellent, and I would not consider for a moment letting a personal issue with I C.E. or its owner prevent me from receiving excellent training.

For anyone who hasn't taken it, I also recommend that everyone who keeps a gun for defensive purposes attend MAG-20, for an excellent course in Use of Force Law.

How many self defense encounters have you experienced or even heard about where 800 rounds were fired? This really gives no insight, other than you should probably clean your weapons if you're going to carry them.

It gives a lot of insight. It's a statistical thing.

An anti-air missile is fired once, though there are many of them. But the qualification testing and reliability testing involves a very high number of cycles. That's so the users can be highly confident that it will work that one time.

Back in the day, the Colt automatic was fired several thousand rounds without a hitch in Army tests. No one expected a cavalryman to shoot that many in a single encounter. It was testing. And those are not the guns people buy today; civilians would not be satisfied with the accuracy, much less with the trigger pull. There are more reliable pistols around today.

How often did the Austrian army expect a soldier to ever fire a Glock in a single encounter?