Can you say, "overkill?"

[qlajlu]

According to follow-up news reports, the gun Freeland raised that opened the gates of hell was a pistol he took from the deputy he killed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,216898,00.html.

Ten SWAT officers surrounded Freeland on Friday as he hid beneath brush and a fallen tree in a rural area. Authorities say he raised the gun belonging to the deputy he had killed, prompting nine officers to fire.

Probably a good thing they ran out of ammo or they may not have been able to find enough to perform an autopsy.

The gene pool is purged of one more! No loss in my book.

 

[kidcoltoutlaw]

I say this

You can't be to Dead,

Thanks,Keith

 

[Pramunitus]

This is unacceptable.

"That's all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more," Polk County sheriff Grady Judd told the Orlando Sentinel newspaper.

I mean, how long could it have taken to get more ammo?

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

This dead man had the chance to peacefully surrender and take his fight with the Deputies who arrested him into the accepted realm of a courtroom.

He choose not to when he killed a Lawman, he sealed his own fate.

 

[Sistema1927]

I think that the Sheriff had it exactly right:

"I suspect the only reason 110 rounds was all that was fired was that's all the ammunition they had,"

 

[the 22 junkie]

Overkill.

 

[Archie]

In my mind...

... the only question is,

Did the suspect cease to be a threat at shot sixty-seven?

and was it apparent?

The officers were executing (no pun intended) a lawful arrest warrant and it strikes me this man lost the benefit of the doubt by waving a gun at them.

 

[BOBE]

67 reasons not to shoot cops in Fla.

 

[Stickjockey]

Okay, maybe overkill was the wrong word to use. It just blew me away (pun) that they shot this guy 68 times. I got this visual of ten cops standing around, guns drawn.

BLABLABLABLAMM!! POW! PAPOW! POW! BLAM!

(Perp, now blown into an oatmeal-like consistency, falls in a wet heap. A light breeze rusltes what's left of his hair, and-)

"Hey! He moved! Get' em!)

BLABLABLAMM! BLABLAMM!

Never said it was necessarily a bad thing; if that's what it took, then hey.

 

[nico]

110 rounds from 10 SWAT officers probably firing full auto.....about 11 rounds fired per officer. i wouldn't call that extreme.

That's something I hadn't thought of. If even half of the cops had some combination of MP5s or M4s, it wouldn't take more than a few seconds to unload 110 rounds.

IMO, whether it was overkill or not is completely irrelevant. The question is whether they had a right to use lethal force, and everything I've seen indicates that they did.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

beerslurpy brings up an excellent point of distinction. SWAT was appropriately used in this situation. the arrest warrant was for a man who had already murdered someone (cop or citizen), tried to murder another, and killed a police dog. that means he had 3 opportunities to surrender and each time opted to use deadly force.

of course this is going to be an extremely high risk encounter. at the drop of a hat, SWAT teams are trained to rock and roll. however, their actions are based completely upon the actions of the guy they have come to arrest.

should this man have surrendered and then shot, then i'd be concerned. however, when you are taking on 10 persons with body armor and automatic weapons, the only common sense thing to do is to surrender if you know they aren't going to instantly kill you (yes, had he survived this encounter, Florida would have probably put him in the chair).

but again, beerslurpy made a very good point that makes this example clear cut case where there was no case of presumed innocence on the part of this bad guy.

the only thing i have to say is that they wasted some good duty ammo.

 

[Geronimo45]

They saved the taxpayer a lot of money. Compare the prices of three boxes of 9mm to the cost of ten years or so of upkeep in prison.

 

[Gunpacker]

Assuming that some of the cops had shotguns, that is not nearly enough holes in the bad guy.
Keep in mind that he was hidden under a knocked down tree, and likely it was difficult to determine if he was dead or ducking. Better to make sure in any case. With the body jumping from hits, it might have been difficult to tell.
For any bleeding hearts out there, keep in mind that they only killed him. Any excess shots to a dead body are not hurting anyone. Just making certain the guy is no threat, and making the autopsy a bit more interesting. Folks shouldn't worry too much about what happens to the dead body of a murderer.
Overkill is an oxymoron. You can't overkill, you can only kill, and that piece of garbage deserved it and asked for it. Even insisted on it. 8 shots into the officer he killed, and 2 contact wounds to the head. That may border on overkill.
He was engaged by 10 Swat team members, but one didn't fire. I assume he was in a position that prevented it. If you listen to the tape with shooting in the background, it only lasted a few seconds. Probably when mags were empty.

 

[10-Ring]

Overkill? NO...IMO it depends on the threat & what force was necessary to eliminate that threat. Each officer on that SWAT team had a different perspective & is depended upon to eliminate that threat...not rely on others on the team to eliminate that threat. 68 rounds is appropriate for the situation.

 

[ptmmatssc]

overkill? naw , but I do have a problem with it being a bigger deal that because it was an LEO it meant more . To me the number of times this guy was shot is less concerning than the fact that had it been some poor laborer from an inner city , I doubt there would have been as much of an effort or reaction . No , i'm not anti LEO , nor do I think they don't deserve respect for what they do , but they are humans like me and thier lives are not worth more or less than mine . if law enforcement treated ALL murders as if it was an LEO killed , then maybe more scum would be taken off the street like this guy was . Not trying to provoke a response here , just stating how I feel about it .

 

[Gunpacker]

Well, I have been involved in situations where law enforcement thought they had managed to bottle up a felon. Usually not even a murder. The encirclement was not abandoned till we were satisfied that the perp was gone, or we got him.
I think any murderer that the cops bottle up will get the same treatment.
In the case in question, the officer was shot with elements for containment in place.
Sometimes they end differently, as in the case of one officer involved in a perimeter containment at the dept. where I worked. The perp managed to jump an officer in the perimeter and kill him with his own gun.
I can't imagine that anyone could believe that any murderer would get less attention if forces could be brought to bear in time.

 

[DerringerUser]

I'm against the death penalty. However, this is completely justified to neutralize the threat.

I agree with everything you said.

 

[Nortonics]

 

[Hemicuda]

They were probably shooting those pesky 9MM FMJs, or those underpowered .40 "Short & Weak"s or those useless, oversized .45's... it took 110 rounds to do the job...

seriously though... they needed to plug all 68 holes (or is that 136?) so he lived long enough to get more ammo to shoot him again!

 

[Erebus]

one bullet fired at close range behind the deputy's right ear and another in his right temple

THAT'S an execution!!

They were facing a guy that was in cover and had pointed a weapon at them. They had no choice to keep firing until they were sure he was neutralized. From the quote above it would have been VERY clear to the officers that had they given him half a chance to kill one of them he would have taken it in a heartbeat.

Pointing a weapon at them is enough reason for what they did. The fact that he cold-bloodedly executed an officer in that fashion makes it abundantly clear you take ABSOLUTELY no chances with him at all. No benefit of any doubt.

 

[Huddog]

I agree that this may not be overkill. However, if he has any family or anyone with standing I guarantee a law suit will follow and excessive force will be claimed. Also as a former LEO with friends who still are you are not trained to shoot to mag lock and SWAT is supposed to be the best of the best. Not saying it was a bad thing in this case. I think the quote about running out of bullets may come back to haunt the department.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

two cops killed

where i come from they charge you for shooting a police dog.
I also wouldn't overlook the possibility of that "all the bullets" being a lil angry bitter police humour, and damn understandable if it was.
i was in court in louisville where a guy had resisted and bit an officer in the web of his hand 13 stitches. This poor criminal got a lil stick time an tried the police brutality bit. the officers said (and i'm remembering from 30 plus years back) i held him with my right hand and hit him with my left till my arm got tired then i switched hands.I almost got a contempt charge laughing.

 

[got cope?]

68 hits? Sounds like he deserved every one.

Judd said Williams was "executed" after Freeland was pulled over in a routine traffic stop on Thursday. Another deputy was wounded and a police dog killed.

 

[got cope?]

where i come from they charge you for shooting a police dog.

Yep, same as shooting a human officer.

 

[Backwoods]

In a situation like this, rule 37 applies.

#37 There is no overkill, there is only "Open fire" and "I need to reload"

Plus the taxpayers won't have to pay for housing and feeding that slimebag. Everbody wins! (The slimebag doesn't count)

Don in Ohio